Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the same

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Dar70, May 4, 2013.

  1. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam


    I'm sticking with the position that this is a predestination paradox. The Enterprise-E (and the Borg) were always part of those past events. There was never a timeline where they were not. So no matter how many people on 2063 Earth were killed by the Borg, they were always killed. There wasn't an "original" timeline where they survived. And thus the Phoenix was always crewed by Cochrane, Riker and LaForge. You can't prove this wasn't the case, after all...

    And since they returned to the same future they left, it would seem to support this opinion.
     
  2. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

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    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

    Apparently not. Up to the new Star Trek,
    had normal blood. Then they had new blood that can cure the sick and revive the dead.
    This ability was not mentioned before now, but every other aspect, save for one, of them was. That one was sexual performance. As a superhuman, was Khan truly better in bed than Kirk? It was never explored. Regardless, this would place the divergence taking place over 300 years before Star Trek.
     
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  3. Nightowl1701

    Nightowl1701 Captain Captain

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    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

    [VOICE=George Takei] Oh myyyyy...[/VOICE]

    We're really gonna get into that subject? :rofl: That's a whole 'nother topic for a whole 'nother message board. Good luck finding a woman who's, er...sampled both and could tell you.

    Oh, and - you might to throw a SPOILER TAG on that post, throwback.
     
  4. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

    We have no way of knowing this. :p
     
  5. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

    ^ It sure seems so. Prove it's not.
     
  6. Set Harth

    Set Harth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

    I'm not sure how relevant that is. Is it inconceivable that stardating conventions changed or became open to multiple variants sometime between 2379 and 2387?
     
  7. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

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    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

    Sisko goes into the past, takes the place of Bell, returns to the future, and it's his face, not Bell's, that one sees when reading this man's biography. Yet, the future he returns to is the one we know. Changes in timeline don't have to be major; they can be as small as a change in image.
     
  8. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

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    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

    On the question of stardates in 2387, the comics muddled the water, so to speak. We have both systems in place.

    We know that stardates were in use in the 2240s, according to the original series. (And, if we take 1277.1 to be Kirk's birth stardate, and not the date he became captain, then this pushes the date of use for stardates to the 2230s.)
     
  9. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

    And it could also be argued that Sisko was always Bell.

    We did see a 'real' Bell back in 2024, but that was it. In the 24th century, nobody checked Bell's records and saw that version. The only time anyone did that, it was after all the time travelling was over, somebody checked the image of Bell and saw Sisko. So how do we know that Sisko wasn't always supposed to be Bell? Another predestination paradox.
     
  10. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

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    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

    We don't know what images there were preserved of Bell. I could estimate based on how our society is now, and say that there was at least one photo of Bell. It is stated that at the end of the episode that Sisko might have to explain to Starfleet how a picture of him from the 21st century existed, and how it became attached to the historical record surrounding Gabriel Bell.
     
  11. Third Nacelle

    Third Nacelle Captain Captain

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    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

    I'd say that any time travel that doesn't result in MAJOR changes to the timeline is of the predestination variety. Small changes propagate big changes. A butterfly can cause a hurricane. Data's head is buried beneath San Francisco right now, and always has been, because Time's Arrow happened before itself. Same with Sisko as Bell.
     
  12. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

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    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

    I have attempted to produce proof. The proof has been rejected. Does anyone else have proof that they like to share?
     
  13. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

    Old Spock rescuing Data's head in the alternate reality would be a cool story.

    DATA'S SEVERED HEAD: "The events of this era do not match the descriptions in my historical files."

    OLD SPOCK: "Yeah... my bad."
     
  14. YellowSubmarine

    YellowSubmarine Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

    That's the beauty of it. When nuData travels to meet Mark Twain, he'll leave a second head in the cave, leaving himself with heads to choose from in the future, and two memories to switch between. I am a bit confused as to how the two Bells would play out.
     
  15. TOSTNGDS9VOYENT

    TOSTNGDS9VOYENT Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

    Or maybe that mission never happens and as soon as the Narada exits the black hole Data's head disappears from the cave. Maybe Sisko never goes back either, in which case that history would play out differently and very well could effect the timeline before Nero. Nero exits black hole which in turn changes both Data and Siskos destinys, which means what they did in the past never happens, which means that the past is changed too, which means that the Kelvin that gets toasted in 2233 is already an alternate Kelvin. Don't you just love paradoxes? :)
     
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

    But wouldn't the Abramsverse be considered to have happened after all those events transpired?
     
  17. Third Nacelle

    Third Nacelle Captain Captain

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    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

    Star Trek writers should have gotten together a long, long time ago and hammered out a manual on exactly how time travel works and what the effects are.

    It all gives me a headache.
     
  18. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

    Wouldn't matter. Any time travel story, examined closely enough, falls apart in terms of story satisfaction.

    The only way to dodge the issue is for a time traveler to remain wherever (or whenever) he ends up and for the viewer to never see the era left behind again.
     
  19. YellowSubmarine

    YellowSubmarine Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

    And miss all the opportunities to torment Janeway? No, thanks. :p
     
  20. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

    (shrugs) I'm perfectly happy with the theory that time travel into the past always involves jumping to an alternate timeline, but in most cases the timeline is so similar to the one you left as to be essentially the same.

    "Parallels" even establishes how you can determine whether you're in the timeline you started out in and one way you could return.
     

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