Into Darkness comparisons (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by indianatrekker26, May 19, 2013.

  1. indianatrekker26

    indianatrekker26 Captain Captain

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    I didn't want to put Into Darkness vs Wrath of Khan as the title of this thread, for fear of spoiling anything for anyone who hasn't seen STID yet.
    I have to get this off my chest. I'm sick and tired of hearing that this movie was a Wrath of Khan ripoff from some fans. These 2 films couldn't be further apart from each other.
    yes, ONE damn scene was lifted from TWOK, and yes Khan is used here. But there, the similarities end.
    TWOK was about a Kirk who was facing the realism of aging, growing old in his life. Khan was out for revenge against Kirk for leaving him stranded on dead planet. Spock discovers the sacrifices one must make.
    STID is about a young upstart Kirk, who through the course of the film, learns what you must truly do to earn to sit in the Captain's chair. This Spock is still going through the pain of losing his planet, of learning what it means to stay alive, and builds his friendship with Kirk through the film.
    the film also deals with the effects from the 09 trek, with starfleet beefing itself up, and using Khan for its own means to an end. In the end, that blows up in its face. This Khan was pushed even further over the edge, than i think Prime Khan was.
    So, really, these two films stand apart. They told completely different stories.
     
  2. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    It's a bit more than "ONE damn scene." It's TWOK's most memorable scene, and it's practically recreated exactly as it was done in TWOK. Aside from Kirk and Spock switching roles, the only other real difference is that when Spock runs into engineering, he doesn't bump into an elderly Chinese guy like Kirk did.
     
  3. indianatrekker26

    indianatrekker26 Captain Captain

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    regardless, it is still one scene. It is not re-enacting an entire movie. It was meant to be an hommage to one particular well-known scene. And for some fans, it rubbed them the wrong way. For others, like me, i was fine with it.
     
  4. Kpnuts

    Kpnuts Commodore Commodore

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    Agree with the OP, it's one scene, the entire storyline of the film is completely different.
     
  5. indianatrekker26

    indianatrekker26 Captain Captain

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    and then there's one other comparison to TWOK that i havent really seen brought up anywhere. Khan is once again done in by a torpedo exploding his ship. I liked that touch.
     
  6. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The movie is an amalgamation of Space Seed, Wrath of Kahn, and TNG's Insurrection, drawing equal inspiration from all 3 stories. Kahn isn't even the film's primary antagonist, although he is the one who survives.
     
  7. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think that Into Darkness mixes elements of Space Seed, The Wrath of Khan and The Search for Spock into a very satisfying brew. :techman:
     
  8. Flux Capacitor

    Flux Capacitor Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Spock didn't slide down a ladder with his feet on the rails so...not the same. ;) Also, of all the lines to mirror, I would have thought the "He'll die!" "He's dead already..." exchange would have been more powerful than the "You'll flood the whole compartment" line.
     
  9. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I doubt that there's a single "inspiration" here from Star Trek: Insurrection; similarities between films do not demonstrate that elements of one are inspired by the other, particularly when such elements are found in so many other antecedents. Drawing the conclusion of influence from happenstance is a common mistake.
     
  10. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I find it funny, because by recreating the climax of another film as the climax of their own film, they indirectly admit that the previous film is far superior to theirs. It's not just a subtle homage, it's a complete lift.

    There's a thread full of criticism against the re-use of a stock VFX shot of the exploding Bird of Prey in Star Trek: Generations. But this film re-used an entire part of another film's script.

    At least the CLIMAX of a film should be original, shouldn't it?
     
  11. Erehwonnz24

    Erehwonnz24 Cadet Newbie

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    I don't see why adapting a previous work indicates its superiority. If that were so, no work could ever improve on a past work. EDITED to add: if you mean that recreating is what indicates the original's superiority, I might agree--except that I don't think the new scene is at all a recreation of the scene in Khan.

    As it is, I don't see the scene as a complete lift at all. The resemblance between the climaxes of the two films is marginal at best: both are set in a similar location and feature a similar sacrifice. The dialogue is almost entirely new. The narrative beats are new. The thematic resonance is new.

    The original scene was primarily a farewell and a confirmation of a relationship between characters. Kirk used emotion to express his friendship. Spock used logic to express his friendship. These are the roles these two characters embraced throughout the bulk of two films and three seasons of television. The scene wasn't meant to push its characters to new places. Rather, it affirmed the relationships that already existed.

    The new scene is more interested in character development, ushering both characters through a moment of transformations and firsts: Kirk finally admits that he fears, finally faces certain death, finally earns his captaincy, and he does these things through what he perceives as a logical act taught to him by Spock. Spock finally admits his own internal strife and puzzlement about his logical side, and he recognizes that his act was essentially emotional, culminating in a moment of raw anger in which his Vulcan side breaks down entirely. These movements feel earned, and there are a lot of them. It's a tightly and carefully written scene.

    None of the above beats are part of the original seven or so lines in Khan, which primarily highlighted Spock as logical and Kirk as emotional. The original gave us stasis we longed for between these two; the reinterpretation gives us character movement and direction. I guess I just don't see this scene as a direct lift or lazy appropriation of material from Khan; only the most perfunctory elements have been retained, with the themes, dialogue, and character interactions working entirely differently. It works for me, possibly more so than the original.
     
  12. YellowSubmarine

    YellowSubmarine Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Which would no longer be anywhere near valid if the film with the recreated climax happens to be the superior one.

    When two stories share elements, which is the better one is not determined by which was there first, it is determined by which one was better. As much as it is baffling, sometimes the worse takes on a story can precede the better ones.
     
  13. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Where else in canonical Star Trek had we seen a rogue/corrupt Admiral with connections to Section 31 as a major/main antagonist besides in Insurrection?

    Note: Although Insurrection itself does not explicitly establish a connection between Dougherty and S31, his actions fit the bureau's modus operandi as established by DS9 and Enterprise.
     
  14. DiscountKlingon

    DiscountKlingon Cadet Newbie

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    The OP is right, this is not a TWOK re-make, but it used elements from TWOK that really didn't work.
     
  15. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Overall STiD had less emotional resonance than TWoK. Pike's demise was more comparable to Spock's death. Kirk's death was hollow because you already knew it was very likely that they were going to use a ham-fisted re-set button.
     
  16. sj4iy

    sj4iy Commander Red Shirt

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    And the original didn't? Just because his (completely unbelievable) resurrection spanned two films doesn't make it better. You can't just throw out unjustified cliffhangers, and no one was going to believe that Kirk was really dead. At least they bring him back in an way explainable in modern medicine (yes, it really is)- Spock just reappears for the hell of it. Personally, I preferred this movie over TWOK, because I liked the story better.
     
  17. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    Admiral Ross on DS9 was working with Section 31. Although he wasn't rogue or corrupt, and was in fact a pretty decent guy by the standards of Starfleet Admirals.
     
  18. ConRefit79

    ConRefit79 Captain Captain

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    Scotty and Kirk exchange those same lines in TWOK.
     
  19. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Nimoy genuinely wanted to leave the franchise. The mind meld was by no means an indication of what they had planned and the scene at the end was simply teasing us with the possibility - it was not guaranteed that they intended to do anything with it.

    Admittedly, titling the next movie The Search for Spock was a bit of a giveaway... :rommie:

    That's not the same as foreshadowing within the same movie by saying, let's inject this magic blood into a dead tribble I just happen to have rotting in the medical bay for no good reason. That just screamed out plot device to pretty much everyone.

    But yeah, I accept other people may prefer this version. It just didn't work as well for me personally. Pike's death did work though because the character was cooland we knew he wasn't coming back.
     
  20. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    Sums it up quite nicely.