Insurrection

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by los2188, Nov 29, 2012.

  1. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So if the S'ona wanted to exterminate the Ba'ku and take the metaphasic radiation, that would be cool in your world?

    Like I've said a hundred times before in these threads, the Federation's actions likely prevented the Ba'ku from being exterminated.
     
  2. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So your saying Picard did a good thing seeing as the Son'a were planing to do that near the end of the film.
     
  3. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Of course he did a good thing. But you're saying he did a bad thing because you said it should be between the S'ona and the Ba'ku. By your application of property rights the Federation had no business to be there. The Ba'ku never asked for Federation intervention, one way or the other.

    However, Picard should've never been there to begin with. He should've followed the orders he was given by Starfleet and Dougherty to go to the Goran system before he knew anything was going on in the Briar Patch.
     
  4. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not saying he did a bad thing, besides depending on when the film takes place the Son'a would have probably been shot on site what with the whole at war thing.

    and Data gets court-martialed YAY! :rolleyes:

    Or they just ignore somebody shooting him for no reason also YAY! :rolleyes:

    Seriously sometimes I wonder if some people watched a different movie than I did.
     
  5. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They didn't know he had been shot. I'm wondering what movie you've been watching? They didn't know he had been shot until they had recovered him and brought him aboard the Enterprise for inspection and repair.

    If the sector wasn't contested, the Federation likely would've had little to nothing in the way of a presence there. The S'ona could've came in and simply beamed the Ba'ku up or cooked them from orbit with the Collector with the Federation/Starfleet being none the wiser.
     
  6. Vasquez Rocks

    Vasquez Rocks Commodore Commodore

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    Not all the Son'a were blind followers of Rua'fo. Gallatin for one wasn't too happy with him when he wanted to exterminate them.

    "Moving them is one thing. Killing them all?!"

    There probably were more Son'a who felt this way. Some of the Ba'ku were their parents afterall.
     
  7. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    How in hell are the Baku a "pre-warp culture?" They migrated through interstellar space to reach that planet in the first place. And years later when they kicked the Sona off the planet, how do you think the Sona left? Statements by the Baku indicate that they retain knowledge of technology, even if they don't currently employ it.

    But you can if the area is yours. Even if the area wasn't your when the people arrived, and the area changed hands multiple times, once it's yours, you can evict the people off of it.

    Which should have been done openly with the Baku.

    Which it is.

    Try this. I own a house, you moved in prior to my acquiring it. Destroying the house will help hundreds of billions of people medically. I move you out so those hundreds of billions of people can be helped. Again it was never your house, you (and 600 of your friends) just moved in one day. If I leave you there, you will be harmed in the process of helping hundreds of billions of people.

    Yes, morally superior.

    Borders do change over time. During ENT the area belonged to the Romulans, the Federation didn't yet exist. By TOS the area was owned by the Klingons, it had changed hands. By DS9 it was Federation territory.

    First off, the Federation isn't a foreign government, it the government of the planet you're currently standing on.

    The Baku should have been openly moved, without subterfuge.

    My read is that the Baku would have been move to a different Federation planet, established there, and would have had the same access to the harvested particles as all the other people in the Federation.

    If the Sona wished to kill the Baku, why didn't they?

    Face it Hartzilla2007, the Sona were going out of their way not to kill the Baku, even after the collector was activated, the movie made clear that there would have been multiple hours to remove the remaining Baku from the planet before condition became fatal.

    The Enterprise could have simply beamed them up.


    :)
     
  8. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And seeing Dougherty didn't seem to mind them poking around until they found the ship, your point is?

    Besides why is everyone care about whether Picard shouldn't have gotten involved or not, everything worked out in the end.

    The Son'a and Baku are trying to get along and the federation can just build a science station in orbit of the planet and study the rings so they can duplicate the radiation, and the Baku get to keep their planet. So everybody wins.
     
  9. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Because it's lazy storytelling. The entire movie depends on Picard constantly violating orders and when you combine lazy storytelling with stupidity, you have a pretty poor movie. Which is exactly what Insurrection is.

    I've had the Blu-ray set for a year now and I still haven't watched Insurrection, I haven't even cracked open the its case. :lol:
     
  10. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Meh, just do what I do and ignore the finished version and track down the original treatment thingy Piller did, that seemed like it would have been a way better movie.
     
  11. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Doughterty was speaking to Picard, both Starfleet officers, "our best ..." means Starfleet science officers. The Federation had already looked at the rings, sometimes you just need to go for the natural resources.

    When you finally get pass who hates whom, and who is whose offspring, the ring planet is still a Federation planet, and the particles will still help hundreds of billions of people medically. The Sona's servant races built one collector, they can built another one.

    While the Federation Council did halted the Baku relocation (notice they didn't call it a "kidnapping") so that a review could take place. The movie never said the harvesting wouldn't take place. All the reasons to perform the harvest remained intact.

    It was never about the planet, and it was never about the Baku/Sona.

    Right after the Federation harvests the particles.

    :)
     
  12. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No they looked at the collector they did not study the rings. I would also think that an in depth study of the rings would take a longer time which they have plenty of now that the Son'a want to do the peaceful coexistence thing.
     
  13. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    your "happy ending" of reconciliation involves many Son'a dying before the particles can take effect. Forgot that part? That's okay, the movie does too. The important thing is that the pretty white Baku had their stagnant, selfish community preserved.
     
  14. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Meh, just hit a transporter with a a negative space wedgie and put the Son'a through it apparently that will turn them into 12 year olds. I mean its not like they didn't have to figure out how to do that to reverse it.

    And the best part is the Son'a will still have all their memories afterwards so they don't lose anything.

    You keep saying selfish but when the where they ASKED about it?
     
  15. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    that point gets brought up a lot, and I have two responses to it:

    1. The reason they weren't asked is a script reason, not an in-universe reason. If they were directly asked by Dougherty after the discovery that they weren't primitives, then either they say yes, and the movie ends, or they say no, and then they look like selfish assholes. So to avoid that trap, they aren't directly asked.

    2. the Baku knew exactly what they had discovered, that's why they stayed there for three hundred years, didn't leave, and didn't tell anyone else. Clearly, they weren't all that keen on sharing it.



    Further, there's so much to this movie that doesn't make any sense. Why didn't the Son'a just tell the truth to the UFP in the first place? Tell them there's a fountain of youth planet in UFP space that the Son'a have equal claim to, and that the inhabitants aren't primitives.


    Then the UFP approaches the Baku directly, removes them for their own good, and then compensates them, offering to take them anywhere they'd like.


    INS is just so sloppily and poorly written that it's amazing it got filmed.
     
  16. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Why didn't the Son'a just tell the truth to the UFP in the first place?
    Apparently the only thing the Sona held back on, is that the Baku and the Sona are the same people.

    Tell them there's a fountain of youth planet
    It is pretty obvious they did tell the Federation Council this. Why else would the Council agree to the harvesting of the particles, from around a Federation planet?

    in UFP space
    Which is why the Sona (likely) approached the Federation Council in the first place. The Federation would have realized that the planet belonged to them as soon as they found out the co-ordinates.

    that the Son'a have equal claim to ...
    In other words zero claim, which is just as much claim as the Baku had to the planet.

    and that the inhabitants aren't primitives.
    The Federation were always aware that the Baku migrated there from somewhere else. The only person in the movie who as unaware of this initially was Picard.

    Exactly what should the Baku have been asked about?

    Remember ... IT ... ISN'T ... THE ... BAKU'S ... PLANET.

    :)
     
  17. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sigh, your never going to get that this is the Federation not the Terran Empire are you?
     
  18. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Who were they going to tell, the only governments running around then were likely to conquer them or turn them into a puppet state or just kill all of them and take the planet for themselves, why moron would want to deal with those people.

    And they seemed to want to be left alone by the rest of the galaxy, hence why they moved to a planet in an area nobody gave a crap about.

    And it's not like they would have had the tech to do it since they were doing a space Amish thing so they would have a lack of come as well as spaceships needed to get far enough out to use them.
     
  19. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    you know, you're right. Dougherty did know from the beginning that the Baku weren't primitives because he knew they didn't come from that planet.

    So I guess I say even more... wtf?:confused:

    WHY did Dougherty bother with this convoluted kidnapping scheme? Why wasn't the matter taken directly to the Baku? The whole movie is built on mountain-sized plot holes.
     
  20. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It difficult to think of a reason, the Baku should have been openly approached, the situation laid out and told to get their things together.

    But consider this. The Baku were able somehow to force the Sona off the planet, and prevent them from returning later. While living a simple life, the Baku weren't a non-technological people. They were able to diagnose the phase variance in Data's positronic matrix, as being the source of his problem.

    While he didn't know of the Sona expulsion, Admiral Dougherty may have been apprehensive as to possible Baku abilities.

    Fail to see your point. Remember, from the Federation's point of view it's primarily about the medical properties of the particles in the rings. Not the Baku, not the Sona, not even the planet itself.

    The whole purpose behind removing the Baku was so that they wouldn't be harmed when the particles were harvested. If it were up to the "Terran Empire" the Baku would have been left where they were and allowed to died from the heat created by the harvesting. The Federation didn't want them harmed, and neither did the Sona.

    Moving the Baku to another planet is going to help billions upon billions of people, when are you going to get this?

    :)