Insurrection as an episode...

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by lewisniven, Sep 27, 2012.

  1. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    But, the Prime Directive would prevent Starfleet from involving themselves and aiding a race on one side of a Civil War
     
  2. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    they were doing that because Picard was interfering in the Son'a plan. If Picard and co. had signaled a readiness to leave the system to the Baku and Son'a to fight it out, it's not like Ru'afo was going to go pursue them.
     
  3. Vasquez Rocks

    Vasquez Rocks Commodore Commodore

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    You're forgetting that the blood feud between the two isn't revealed until the end of the movie. By this point Picard is a prisoner of the Son'a. The information is then given to Dougherty who agrees to pull out of the situation (which gets him stretched to death by Ru'afo). This all happens in about the last fifteen minutes of the film.
     
  4. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    Still waiting for an example of a forceful relocation that lead to a good results and yes, you can judge it by whatever categories you deem appropriate.
     
  5. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    What part of THEY WERE TRYING TO KILL HIM AT THE TIME do you not understand the Prime Directive doesn't say squat about not kicking someone's ass when they are trying to KILL you, or else every time the Starfleet officers defended themselves from hostiles they would be violating the Prime Directive which is beyond ridiculous.
     
  6. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think the point being made is that if Our Heroes had offered to stand down once they learned the true nature of the conflict they would have appeared less hypocritical.
     
  7. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Except

    1) There really wasn't any time to do so

    2) The Son'a were still going to kill them.
     
  8. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't really agree with that...Picard confronted Ru'afo directly, and he knew the situation at that point. He surely could have offered to stand down his forces at that point, but didn't offer to do so.

    It seems a bit uncharitable to assume the Son'a would still have killed them at that point, especially since the movie made a point of establishing that there was at least some dissension in the Son'a ranks.
     
  9. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    again, it what depend what you mean by "good results." There aren't really comparable situations in real life to having a small village be sitting on top of the type of resource in INS, so it would be a silly comparison. I can think of some forced relocations that certain ethnic or nationalities would have found to have "good results," but it's still not comparable. Which is why I say that it's so important to look at the concrete matters of THIS situation. The issue isn't whether about forced relocation is good in the abstract, because it isn't. It's about whether it's JUSTIFIED HERE, which it is.


    And as to DonIago's point, yes that's it exactly. There's no "my god what have I done?" realization on Picard's part that he just flagrantly broke the PD and took a side in a civil war. He goes blithely on his way, never acknowledging that he was wrong, and that the Son'a may have been justified. It makes him look like a colossal hypocrite after his debate with Dougherty.

    And there may have still been some time to salvage the situation at the end, with an offer to withdraw the UFP. But no, there's no such attempt.
     
  10. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And how does being held in a Son'a brig leave him in any position to order them to stand down without everyone thinking he was coerced into doing so.

    You mean the guys who have been lying to them the whole time up to that point?

    So just to clarify yon believe that Ru'afo (who was shown to probably be nuts) wouldn't have ordered the Starfleet officers who weren't part of Picard's group placed in an area where the collector would kill them after murdering the Starfleet admiral present after said admiral seems to be having his people pulled out when he found out that the Son'a lying to them to drag them into his revenge scheme, if Picard had said I give up? :wtf:

    One guy does not equate to a full on mutiny, everyone else didn't seem to have a problem there and the one guy only agreed to help Picard after he verbally bitch slapped him.
     
  11. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Picard offers to have his forces stand down and recall the Enterprise only if and when Ru'afo releases him and the other prisoners he's taken.

    Ru'afo didn't tell anyone about the Sona's relation to the Baku because if he had then Starfleet might have refused to assist him for exactly the same reasons that they shouldn't be assisting the Baku. Until Starfleet forces sided with the Baku it was to the Sona's advantage to keep it a secret. Plus, as you already stated, he's nuts.

    This isn't rocket science.

    One guy having an issue with the situation suggests that there may be others, who perhaps would need less of a bitch-slapping, especially since Picard had already swayed one of their number.
     
  12. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So you side stepped my question entirely and made it more confusing by adding the condition that Picard would for some reason call off the Enterprise's attempt to contact their own government in an attempt to get them to call off the relocation.

    He didn't really seem to care one way or the other at that point though, so what makes you think he was going to negotiate with the people he was probably already planning to kill at that point.

    And him being nuts as he is, he'll suddenly be open to negotiating why exactly?

    No, not really seeing as again nobody seemed to have any problem with it except the one guy and it still took the aforementioned bitch-slapping to get him to do something about it. And its not like Ru'afo needed anybody else to turn the collector on any way.

    Besides this runs into the big problem of Ru'afo seemed to think he was winning what exactly does he have to gain form not killing everyone and taking the particles for himself and his minions.
     
  13. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    So you still haven't found any example which is hardly a surprise as "relocation" is always a euphemism for murder. Happened to the Indians, happened to the Jews.

    Ehm, Picard was a civilian at that moment and he did not step down because he was about to violate Dougherty's orders but because he was about to violate the Prime Directive. He as well as his senior officers were perfectly aware of what they are doing, fighting against the wickedness of the Federation and trying to prevent the relocation of the Ba'ku. If a significant part of Starfleet becomes unlawful and some officers go rogue in order to prevent or undo these actions it is obvious who is more truthful to the spirit of the Prime Directive.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2012
  14. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    Huh, I'm not sure you understand where I'm coming from, it's The Federation interferring in a Civil War that I am calling a Prime Directive violation? No one would be trying to kill Picard, if The Federation was obeying the Prime Directive and not interferring in a Civil War. It was pointed out the Federation were working with the Son'a, who had a claim to the planet, just like the Baku did. the Federation working with the Son'a was interferring in a Civil War in order to get what they wanted. Picard was trapped in the middle of the whole damned mess that Starfleet created.
     
  15. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Exactly. Under ideal conditions (and yes, the conditions in INS were not ideal), if Our Heroes primary concern was the Prime Directive (and that's a big if under the circumstances) they would have stood (standed?) down and withdrawn from the planet as soon as they became aware of the relationship between the Son'a and the Baku, for the same reasons they withdrew from Klingon space in "Redemption".
     
  16. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well you said it yourself that conditions in INS were not ideal so what would you have the characters do let the Son'a kill them?

    Because I don't see how standing down was possible or would have worked.
     
  17. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    Well, the Federation pretty much let the Cardassians kill much of Bajoran population.

    Seems only Federation members are entitled to protection.

    If the Son'a had been smart they would have transported the the Baku off the planet themselves and not gotten the Federation involved. We aren't talking about billions of people here, only 600.
     
  18. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    No. Picard's primary concern was the safety of the Ba'ku. He did not put down his uniform because he violated a direct order, he put it down because the Federation ignored its own rules and he could not fight against these rules from within.
    Picard learned the truth while being attacked by Son'a and then being imprisoned by Dougherty and Ru'afo. He can hardly stand down and neither can the Enterprise who is attacked by Son'a warships. It is no longer an academic issue, it is a fight for life and death.
     
  19. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yes...and as I noted, I was speaking of ideal conditions, which nobody is claiming these are. In fact I explicitly stated that I did -not- consider these to be ideal conditions.