Discussion in 'The Next Generation' started by The Squire of Gothos, Feb 19, 2013.
No he wasn't. He was forced to play out the program until it ended.
I never really thought about it, but that is a bit disturbing, actually. I mean, it sure is lucky that Picard's the kind of guy who can ultimately handle it. Someone else might have gone nuts and killed themselves - assuming that would even be possible in the program.
I hadn't thought of that, what would happen? Would Picard reset back to the beginning of the download and have to live everything all over again. Or regardless of the method of suicide (let's pretend it was explosives) does he just continue on as if nothing happen.
He can't actually die, because he is safe and sound lying on the floor of the bridge.
Maybe if he killed himself in the download, he'd simply wake up.
When the Enterprise cut off the beam, Picard almost died as a result. It's possible that if Picard tried to commit suicide on the planet that the beam would be interrupted, and Picard would go into cardiac arrest. Do you find this plausible?
Sorry. I just don't see it. He was able to raise his daughter to be a scientist and was able to use the leadership skills he'd developed in the real world as a part of that community.
Sure, he didn't have the choice to leave, but that's a far cry from saying he had no choice whatsoever. He had a huge amount of choice. He was not just playing a prepared script. The fact that the first thing he does is call for the holodeck program to end is proof of that.
There's been a slight misconception in here about what alternate reality means. Parallels, Remember Me, & Yesterday's Enterprise are really the only true alternate reality TNG episodes. Although Time Squared has elements of alternate reality in it
The Inner Light, Frame of Mind, Eye Of The Beholder, Interface, The Mind's Eye, & The Battle, are all either set in or contain elements of existing in an altered mind state. Dark Page, Night Terrors, Violations, & perhaps Phantasms could also be categorized that way
Future Imperfect, & most Q episodes like Qpid, Hide & Q, All Good Things... & especially Tapestry are all debatable, because there's the illusion of plains of existence occurring, but it's realness is subject to question, based on the powers of those creating it. For all we know, Future Imperfect is really just an episode centering around a very intuitive holodeck type phenomena, & Tapestry might just be Picard having an "It's a Wonderful Life" dream, & even if it is a Q creation, how real it is we don't know.
Where No One Has Gone Before is open to debate too. That's a stumper, because there's verifiable divergences occurring in reality, but their realness is questionable
I agree, but it's also true that the condition had perimeters within which he could not escape. He had free will to carve out whatever existence he chose on that planet, but within confines that's purpose was to force him to become invested in a life there, & then witness the buildup to its demise, such that he'd value their existence with more than just a bystander's perspective. With all that time & his knowledge, he probably could have built a method to move a vast portion of the populace off the planet in time, but that's not the point of the program
It is a program & he had to exist within its confines, even as liberal as they were in allowing him to actively contribute to his state
But the download programmed Picard to have a family, to be part of the community. The intent was that someone, whoever, the probe encountered would experience the loss of the species after their extinction.
If Riker had been the one to initially communicate with the probe, he would have raised a child who became a scientist, he would have had the same woman as his wife, he would have lived his years as a captive in that very same village.
The same with anyone (except possibly Data) who tried to talk to the probe.
It was all a pre-programmed mind rape.
Well as someone said, Picard calls for the holodeck pretty early on. That was hardly programmed in. So there must be freedom within the system's boundaries. As an extreme example, if Picard murdered his daughter, she wouldn't become a scientist, no? The point being that there are possible outcomes that don't involve the outcomes we saw in the episode.
The only preprogrammed things were what the probe interfacing person awoke to, the wife, the friend, & the community. From that point on, the life is theirs to live, within boundaries. Had it been Worf, would the daughter have been a scientist? Doubtful
It's feasible another person wouldn't have had a family & gotten a divorce instead
Oh Brother. It was an episode where it gave Picard the chance to live a life he missed out on.
Picard may have been a passive recipient of the process but he was no victim.
People keep saying this but I think it's horseshit. Picard was obviously capable of doing anything he wanted in life. If he had really wanted a family, he would have had one.
He was forced to live out decades in a preprogrammed environment. If that's not considered mind rape I don't know what is.
Although I have never thought about it this way before, I find myself drawn to BillJ and T'Girl's conclusions about this episode. A guilded cage is still a cage. And Picard was given no indication that he would be able to return to his life on the Enterprise unaffected by his experiences.
In life we have to weigh our priorities and desires. We can still choose one path and at times have some regrests and questions about a path not taken. TNG explored that scenario with Picard a few times.
I am not saying you don't have a point. I think the intent of the writers was to give Picard a positive experience. It just shows how themes like in the pilot episode "The Cage" can be seen from different perspectives.
The writers could have just as easily written the episode from the perspective that Picard felt violated and mind raped. But since that was not the intent of the writers then I really do not see it as an issue.
Frankly, I never felt the act was anything but a violation of Picard. Ultimately though, the perspective of the episode is that it is forgivable as the violation is perpetrated by extinct people, & Picard's willingness to let it in & treat it as something of value makes it seem like less of an assault
Although that's pretty much how Stockholm Syndrome works too
Edit: Wow, now that episode takes on a whole new angle for me, Picard suffering Stockholm Syndrome. I don't care what anyone says, that's some smart writing
I do think that point that Picard did not have a say in his mind being probed is a good point that people have brought up. Maybe the writers didn't think about it?
I don't think that episode works if Picard knew it was just a mind meld type of incident. He had to truly become one of these people in order to experience them.
So while it may have been a violation technically, I am willing to give the writers and the people in Picard's experience, some slack because I think it is a moving episode.
I think you're missing the point.
First of all, it wasn't preprogrammed. The parts were there, but what happened flowed from what Picard did. I doubt there were specific events programmed in, except for the whole"Our sun is dying" thing.
Secondly, it's about how, yes, even though Picard chose his career over a family, the lack of a family is something that still affected him. Just because his career was more important to him doesn't mean that a family was meaningless to him. This episode gives him the chance to not have to worry about his career so he can have that family.
But was the program as limited as T'Girl thinks? I disagree. Oh, sure, Picard was stuck in Kataan's version of "The Sims," but that doesn't mean everything was completely fixed. I like to think, based on the examples of Picard calling for the Holodeck exit, etc..., that some things were random. Maybe he would have children, maybe not. Maybe he and his wife would divorce. He just couldn't leave "Simmville."
Did he have to cooperate with the program? Was that even the point of the program? The Kataan people simply wanted someone to remember who they were. As long as "Picard" lived the rest of his life on their planet, he'd remember.
Oh, they did work in the flute. It seems he was predestined to learn the flute.
They could've included an instruction manual and allowed people to explore their culture by choice.
That would have created the problem Picard had in the Nexus. Knowing it was not real it took away all meaning of the experience. So for Picard to have a meaningful experience he had to think it was real.
To create a sense of reality choice had to be eliminated
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