In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by M.A.C.O., Sep 14, 2013.

  1. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    After the awesome display of maliciousness and savagery Species 8472 wrought against the Borg in "Scorpion". This episode I think fails to deliver as a righteous follow up for Species 8472. It also falls flat (to me at least) where they tried playing up the Cold War paranoia theme between Voyager and Species 8472.

    I think this episodes loses strength because we see the VOY crew talking to other humans (Species 8472 in disguise) in a civilized setting. Had it been humans talking to those ugly, possibly stolen from Babylon 5, "your galaxy will be purged" aliens we saw in "Scorpion". I think the peace between VOY and Species 8472 would have had a more profound effect.

    What do you think?


    PS. Neutering is not my word. It was Nick Sagan who described it as such. Here's a passage from Memory Alpha from the "In The Flesh" page. I think it illustrates what went wrong in the translation of this episode from writing to execution.

    "At first, the episode featured a large-scale, interstellar conflict. "The way we originally conceived that story, there was going to be a big space battle," said executive producer Brannon Braga. "We realized that this should not be a story about a space battle, it should be a story about discovering peace between two paranoid races who were thrust against each other by a common foe, the Borg. Suddenly it became a very Star Trek-y episode." (Cinefantastique, Vol. 30, No. 11, p. 29) Nick Sagan concurred, "The original idea didn't end quite so 'happy happy.' The so-called neutering of 8472 wasn't supposed to happen [....] The original story as I envisioned it had just kind of a moment of realization of 'maybe we're not so different,' the hint that there could be some possibilities. But then reinforcements arrive, and Voyager has to escape, and who knows if we've actually done something good there. But once we got involved, I think Brannon actually wanted to resolve it."
     
  2. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    The whole idea of 8472 was that they were so different that it would be almost impossible to find common ground. "In the Flesh" made them human :brickwall:

    ...and then, to c(r)ap it off, it was Boothby-mania. Ugh.
     
  3. Isolinear

    Isolinear Commander Red Shirt

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    This episode always bothered me. Actually, I think it is the worst Voyager episode. Ruined Scorpion 1+2 for me. Now that I think of it, I'd rather watch Threshold than "In the Flesh". The Ultimate Xenophobic race, best friends of mankind in 40 minutes, thanks to Chakotay. Oh, dear. :rofl:

    Also, it's full of plot holes. WHY is the staging area there in the first place, THOUSANDS of lightyears from Earth? There are supposedly more of these domes, but this Boothby character happens to be the big leader who can stop every Sp8472? Quite a coincidence.

    "These are the Voyages..." is a masterpiece compared to this drivel.
     
  4. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I guess they decided they needed to answer the somewhat nagging question of why haven't 8472 attacked if they know Voyager has biological weapons that can destroy them at the cellular level and can enter their space at will.

    The episode wasn't good at all, but I wouldn't go as far as it being worse than TATV. Like with the Q after Death Wish.. they should've just left well enough alone.
     
  5. publiusr

    publiusr Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Seeing stacked Borg body parts made me think these things were more like the Insects from Shuggai--something you really didn't want to mess with. And then they do the Klatu deal with the Boothby-similacrum. Phooey
     
  6. KaraBear

    KaraBear Captain Captain

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    The cg was too expensive to keep having 8472.

    To me this episode made them more creepy. Like the shapeshifters, they could replace someone and you wouldn't even know. That's scarier to me.

    Plus at the end "boothby" was doubtful that the other 8472 would agree to the truce.
     
  7. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't mind having 8472 agree to a truce because they weren't the aggressors in Scorpion, their savagery was an overreactive self defense.

    But I hate the way they went about it. It made no sense for them to do the Soviet Americatown thing, there's no reason for Species 8472 to do that. They could have written an episode where Voyager had to somehow convince them they weren't like the Borg, that was more violent and less sentimental, and it could have been a great episode where they really had to apply Star Trek's original mission statement and find common ground with a completely alien species.
     
  8. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Seeing how folks were already PO'ed that a species more powerful than the Borg existed at all, I doubt there'd be anyway to settle things with these same aliens in a way anyone would like either.

    In a way that wasn't a big stupid 100-part story, anyways.
     
  9. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the Flesh is an awkward clunky piece of crap. Very disappointing after the thrill that was Species 8472 crawling up Voyager's hull.
     
  10. KaraBear

    KaraBear Captain Captain

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    but that's exactly what the episode was! they were learning to be human so they could observe the AQ, they thought that humans were a threat. Janeway did have to sit down and convince Boothby that they weren't a threat at all
     
  11. Isolinear

    Isolinear Commander Red Shirt

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    This is part of the problem. You don't sit down a Species 8472 of all things, and have a nice chat!!! That's character (species) assassination!
     
  12. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^
    Forbid we add depth to an otherwise generic villain. It could've been better, but at least the attempt was there. I always felt they got a bad rap undeservedly. All they did was have the audacity to defend themselves when attack, and understandably added Voyager and the Federation to their list when they boarded their ship, tractored it, tried to beam it away, and were seen collaborating with their enemy.
     
  13. Isolinear

    Isolinear Commander Red Shirt

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    Adding depth should be more than implausibly easy peace talks with an ultra-xenophobic race.

    Remember how Young Q solved the holo-negotiations in "Q2"? He changed the holodeck characters. That's what this felt like to me: Cheating.
     
  14. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I didn't say they executed it well, I just said making the effort wasn't the problem.
     
  15. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That I agree with. The problem isn't that they negotiate with Species 8472, the problem is it was just so damn easy. And the problem is that the 8472 plot was implausible and silly. This is a group that has no need for espionage.
     
  16. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If a pathetic scout ships can wipe out entire flotillas of your best vessels and for all you know they have massive Battleships out there too, then yeah it usually is a good idea not to go in guns blazing until you know more.

    Of course, DS9 did this same story with the Changlings and NO ONE CARED.
     
  17. Yanks

    Yanks Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Alright... [​IMG]

    :lol::lol:

    In the Flesh isn't the greatest episode, I'll grant you that but all they did was neuter some really cool bad guys. They didn't neuter an entire series!!
     
  18. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I do like that Chak pashed a gigantic vicious insect.
     
  19. KaraBear

    KaraBear Captain Captain

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    I think you need to rewatch the episode again, you're missing details that explain your questions. The "staging" area is there because 8472 thinks that humans are dangerous, they are learning to act like them so they can get some spies into the Federation and observe them to see if they are truly a threat or not

    Bothby was far from the "big leader who can stop every 8472" watch the episode, he was kind of the leader of that particular group, he said that he would go to the other groups and propose the peace agreement to them, but he was doubtful they would agree to it.
     
  20. Yanks

    Yanks Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    This :bolian:
     

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