Imagine the TOS Starfleet

Discussion in 'Star Trek - Original Series' started by Praetor, Sep 8, 2013.

  1. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    This got me thinking. This chart may be of interest to some of you; as you can see there were a bit more than twelve carriers in service during TOS's run, though quite a few were ASW or amphibious carriers. And you can also see a number of familiar Starfleet names that were in service at the time.

    (click for full size)
    [​IMG]
     
  2. jpv2000

    jpv2000 Captain Captain

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    That's the way I see it as well. It was Kirk and the unique gestalt he had with his crew that made the Enterprise the best ship to send to a crisis, not the actual ship itself.
     
  3. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    You are referring to the two digit contact code "64" only?

    General question to all: Does it look on your FullHD (!) displays like "1664" or "1864" on the starship status chart from "Court Martial".

    The one thing I can't wrap my head around is how Greg Jein was certain it's "1664" and "1697" on the still photo from the original negative he probably had, but mistook "1831" for "1631".

    Maybe I take my Blu-ray disc next time to my friend who has a 4K UltraHD Sony projector. Maybe the upsampling provides an answer. :)

    Bob
     
  4. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think this makes perfect sense. Further, based on the notion of "rate" systems, why can't there be Class I, II, III etc. Starships?

    Wow, that's fascinating. Thanks for sharing.

    That works.
     
  5. CrazyMatt

    CrazyMatt Captain Captain

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    I remember my reaction to seeing the Reliant in TWOK and hearing Chekov's log...

    'Starship log, stardate 8130.4. Log entry by First Officer Pavel Chekov. Starship Reliant on orbital approach to Ceti Alpha VI, in connection with Project Genesis. We are continuing our search for a lifeless planet to satisfy the requirements of a test site for the Genesis Experiment. So far no success.'

    "WHAT'S HE SAYING? THAT'S NOT A STARSHIP!!!!!"

    I guess my universe of understanding expanded.
     
  6. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Big "S" Starship verses little "s" starship? Might in a fashion explain the plate next to the turbolift in TOS. The Enterprise was a Constitution class starship, but it was also classed as a :eek::eek::eek: "STARSHIP" :eek::eek::eek:

    Something that was a destroyer would still be a staship, but would not be classed as a (capital S) Starship.

    So class could have two seperate meanings.

    :)
     
  7. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Because "Starship II" is the classification of the refit Enterprise according to the Official TMP Blueprints ("Type: Heavy Cruiser")? ;)

    Bob
     
  8. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    I agree with others that think Starfleet is like NATO and Earth's UESPA contributed Earth ships to the fleet.

    It was interesting in "The Alternative Factor" that we see
    1. Starfleet withdraw all their units and personnel within 100 parsecs of Kirk's ship and
    2. that Kirk's high enough on the food chain to request ships to be assigned to him even though he isn't a Commodore.

    That suggests to me that Starfleet could've been pretty big and that there were smaller fleet ships that Kirk could command.

    Oh, here is an interesting chart of US Submarine evolution. Those early submarines had simple letter names and class names. I can see some of those TOS writers possibly emulating "older classes" with J-Class and DY-100, DY-500, etc while later classes got proper class names.

    Evolution of US Subs chart (warning big graphic 1.3mb)
     
  9. Darkwing

    Darkwing Commodore Commodore

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    No. If we go with 1864 Excalibur, then Reliant reuses the hull number. Part of why I prefer all 16xx numbers as we thought it was back in the day.

    Plain-jane vanilla dvd, no HD of any kind.

    If he saw 1664 and 1697, that'd pre-dispose him to think 1631, 1647, etc.

    Hope it helps you out; I'm just gonna go with what I stated previously.
     
  10. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Strategically, the ship of the line was the most important. The backbone of the line was the 74-gun third rate. The first and second rate, with three gun decks, were used as flagships or in the line of the largest fleets, and there were less than 20 in service c. 1800, compared to about 60 74s. The third rates were also the most economical of the big ships: Because wooden warships were essentially a similar form scaled up or down, the biggest ships required very large and very rare trees for their construction, so the first and second rates were hugely more expensive than the third.

    Some things about the Hornblower-era Royal Navy are good comparisons to Starfleet, others not so much. In TOS, the Enterprise-type seems to be the workhorse of its fleet. We know from "The Ultimate Computer" that they are used in groups for war missions, but whether they shoulder the main strategic effort, or are backup for some unseen big boys (the "dreadnought" of TMP?), we don't know for sure.

    One big difference between the Starfleet and real navies is that Starfleet can encounter dangerous threats that come completely without warning. They know where the Klingons and the Romulans are, but they don't know where the next Doomsday Machine or planet-killing space amoeba is going to come from. In that sense, it makes sense that the exploration and frontier-patrol vessels would be the most powerful in the fleet, or close to it, instead of some of the smallest.

    One big factor about naval warfare around 1800 was the importance of raiding enemy commerce and protecting ones own; in numbers, almost a quarter of the Royal Navy was smaller vessels for that role. That doesn't seem to be a big deal for Starfleet, perhaps merchant shipping is sufficiently "internal" to the Federation that it's not a concern.
     
  11. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Clean Old Mod Moderator

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    This is a very interesting point and could possibly tie into a couple of oft-ignored lines.

    From "The Conscience of the King"
    From "This Side of Paradise"
    The first example gives the impression that Earth and Vulcan had fought against each other in a conflict at some point in the past, which Vulcan lost. In the second, Kirk is exaggerating to get under Spock's skin, but there'd have to be some basis in Kirk's accusations for it to be effective.

    Could Vulcan have attempted to secede from the Federation, or perhaps been on the side of another planet or coalition of planets who did?
     
  12. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Brilliant...!

    That does indeed seem completely likely. It could also explain why Stiles was so easily biased towards Spock in "Balance of Terror," and why everyone, including Kirk, kind of gave him a look after the big reveal scene.

    Maybe Vulcan secessionists/terrorists were put down at Axanar?
     
  13. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That line is on of the reasons I draw parallels between Vulcan and Japan. After WWII Japan went from enemy to staunch ally and was occupied by US forces for several years after the war.
     
  14. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That would make for a far more interesting back story than what we ended up with in Enterprise. :techman:
     
  15. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well they pretty much ignored that line in future TOS episodes as well. Turning the Vulcans into pacifists and philosophers. I think part of that was the time in which TOS was made and Spock becoming a darling of the counter-culture (or a segment of the counter-culture)
     
  16. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    I'm enjoying this thread immensely, but what I just read either reveals that McCoy's knowledge of history is flawed (because he is drunk?) or a continuity problem. Here is the dialogue from "The Immunity Syndrome":

    Spock: True. It is also true they never knew what was killing them. Their logic would not have permitted them to believe they were being killed.
    Kirk: Explain.
    Spock: Vulcan has not been conquered within its collective memory. The memory goes back so far that no Vulcan can conceive of a conqueror. I knew the ship was lost because I sensed it.

    Bob
     
  17. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's a continuity error. One of many in TOS. This Side Of Paradise was produced before Immunity Syndrome. I doubt the idea that McCoy was drunk and couldn't recall history ever crossed the minds of the writers. Especially since at that time they (the writers) were creating the "history".
     
  18. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That and home video with people watching the episodes dozens and dozens of times never crossed their minds.

    Maybe that's why Star Trek is still remembered so fondly? They told the best stories they could and didn't care about what happened last year or even last week. They did whatever was best for each individual story.
     
  19. Darkwing

    Darkwing Commodore Commodore

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    /\ I can't agree. Continuity matters to decent storytelling. Blowing off previous stories to make the current one work is the sign of a hack writer and low quality ideas.
    Mistakes happen, things get forgotten, but trampling your previous work just to make it easier to write the current story is laziness.
     
  20. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Star Trek had continuity but it wasn't the ridged "every thing counts" continuity that some fans would like. They were more than willing to toss out ideas that didn't work or look for ideas that worked better. The first half of Season One is littered with abandoned ideas. That doesn't make them hacks, it shows they were professionals.

    "A foolish continuity is the hobgoblin of little minds". ;)