If Braga had a chance to do "Endgame" over again...

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by JanewayRulz!, Aug 24, 2010.

  1. JanewayRulz!

    JanewayRulz! Vice Admiral Admiral

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    He would have really twerked me off.

    :wtf:

    I can hear the gnashing of teeth now, from the anti "all Seven all the time" crowd had he gone through with such a plan.

    Unfortunately, for once I would have been one of them but not just because it would be Seven yet again to the fore. In fact there are many reasons I would be up in arms over this reinterpretation.

    Not the least of which is the author's contention that he'd like to show Seven as the "damaged woman who can't get by her past" analogy.

    Seven of Nine, like many of the cast in the finale, deserved more of a role than she received. I could have even lived with her dying to help Voy on its way, but I highly doubt a Seven centered finale would have given any more to do for the rest of the cast than the Janeway centered finale. At least with the sacrifice of the Admiral, we got our "tragedy" and got to keep our Janeway (and our Seven) at the same time.

    Maybe Braga should concentrate on how he would have redone the Enterprise finale, so it had more to do with Enterprise and last to do with TNG. :confused:
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2010
  2. kes7

    kes7 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    As someone with personal experience in this area, the idea of a woman so unable to get over her victimization that she is "damaged" and must die for it is seriously one of the most offensive things I've ever heard. Bad, bad analogy, Braga. You deserve whatever shit you get for making it.

    Do you have a link for this? I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'm just kind of ... needing to see it with my own eyes? Because seriously -- who says something like that? :wtf:

    ETA: Never mind. I see it in the sidebar there. W ... T... F. Seriously. It takes a lot to offend me, and that comment did. Beyond the bad rape analogy, the idea that Seven's past DOOMED her is so antithetical to Trek's optimism in general that I kind of wonder how he ever got hired. Wow.
     
  3. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think he means it in the way you're taking it.
    I don't think he means because she damaged that she must die. I see it as in the confusion of her life, her scarifice like Data would give her life meaning. Too give your life for those you love is one of the most human unselfish things you can do, so where as she was confused by never being fully Borg or human, her death gives us an answer. She died doing a human thing and that will have more impact on the crew & the audience than anything she's ever done.

    However, I still don't think Braga gets that the problem with "Endgame" isn't the story per say but rather the conclusion too the story in general. Seven's death is still nothing if we don't know what happens to everyone after.
     
  4. kes7

    kes7 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Braga's words, unedited:

    I don't see anything there about "dying doing a human thing" and any idea of redemption ... just doom and gloom and "you can't go home again."
     
  5. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Sorry, I guess reading between the lines, I do because it's almost the same way/reason Data died. Scarificing ones self for the well being of others is human.
     
  6. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Wesley Crusher had the best line in the Guild... "Are you skull fucking me? Oh my god! You're skull fucking me!"

    The Doctor was left alone with her severed head for quite some time in Timeless but it didn't seem he considered expressing his love then, now that she wasn't in a position to reject him.

    I'm not sure why they bothered with the Admirals disease when the infinite regress thingy, and the disease they gave icheb or what they did to Hugh would have sufficed just as well without causing the demise of whosoever was selected to be the trojan horse to walk this deadly weapon in through the front gates.

    Kill Seven.

    Go ahead.

    See if I care.

    It wouldn't have changed much, except that Admiral Janeway would have got a kicking from the Indian. "Whoop de doo! you killed my girlfriend so I wouldn't lose my wife? Are you defective! A moron!? An idiot!? Fuck it, I'm going back to stop you interfering because you made a shitty shitty mess of every thing!"

    Then he punches a woman in her mid 70s and steals her time machine.

    Has any one considered that Admiral Janeway came back moments after Chell was given free range in the mess because Chell was given free range of the mess?
     
  7. JanewayRulz!

    JanewayRulz! Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Plasma leek soup, anyone?
     
  8. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's always funny when writers think that a character that is trapped between two worlds has failed and needs to die because apparently the only purpose of that character would be to sacrifice himself.

    That people simply learn to live with what and who they are often doesn't get their attention. ;)
     
  9. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's not very interesting dramatically to just have them shrug and go "Oh well", and then carry on like nothing's different.
     
  10. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Funny, because I don't find lame death scenes interesting. ;)
     
  11. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If Braga got the chance to do Endgame again, he would do better to change the whole stupid and highly problematic storyline of Janeway coming back to change the past... And to think of some better and dramatically more satisfying, less Deus-ex-machina-like way to bring Voyager home.

    As for Seven dying... Meh, the whole 'redemption through sacrificing yourself for your crew' has become such a cliche, particularly in Trek. Why can't someone achieve redemption and go on living? Seven didn't need to die... they just shouldn't have hooked her up with Chakotay - that was stupid.

    Janeway dying for her crew would be just as cliche and unnecessary, but the older Janeway from the future dying was even worse because it was such a cop-out. We have the captain die AND stay alive (because there's two of them!). Great way to have your cake and eat it. :rolleyes:

    I'd also like to see Voyager crew after they got back home... I'd like to see how they would cope with it, how would the Maquis be treated, how would Seven and Icheb adjust, would some members of the crew find it difficult to adjust after so much time spent in the Delta Quadrant, trying to get back home. You've been trying to get back home for so long, what do you do now you are home.
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I got two words for you...

    Vaughn Armstrong.

    Meet the Clumps beat Star Trek First Contact for best special effects at the Academy Awards.

    You don't see the connection?

    Roles portrayed by Vaughn Armstrong...

    Telek Rimor from Eye of the needle.
    Alpha Hirogen from Flesh and Blood
    Vidiian Captain from Fury
    2 of fricking 9 from Survival instinct

    And not to forget SESKAL from a couple episodes of Deep Space Nine!

    Also...

    Gul Dunar from DS9 Past Prologue
    Korris from TNG's Heart of Glory

    And possibly for the cherry on top: the great grand son of Maxwell Forrest, if not Forrest himself in old man make up, pushing 300 as he welcomes Kathy home, as a teaser/spoiler for Enterprise if they had him cast for that yet or even if they hadn't because they should have.

    What if in Voyagers finale, Vaughn played all of these characters AGAIN, SIMULTANEOUSLY during the course of some Endgame story AND Korath (as well?), who it seems was a character from the Las Vegas Experience which is just shameless cross advertising and not as pointless a waste of time as I thought after all.

    Y'know... Like how Eddie played half a dozen rolls in meet the Clumps?

    Wouldn't that have been grand?

    One guy in lots of roles and outrageous make up TRUMPS Borg.

    A fact proven at the Oscars.

    But honestly if they were going to recast their Borg Queen, then their first call should have been to Jennifer Lien.
     
  13. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    After "Lord of the Rings", I'm happy they didn't go for something like that and just ended the damn thing in one spot. They were in contact with the Alpha Quadrant earlier on in the show so they already were aware of the changes and stuff.
     
  14. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, in the book, they did. ;)
     
  15. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

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    I agree. Get rid of that plus come up with a story that didn't involve either the borg or time travel and you could have had a decent finale.
     
  16. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No way.

    Mulgrew & Krige together onscreen IMO is one of the best moments in Voyager. I'd never want to loose that. Plus, I'd rather end the series watching the unimatrix complex blow up than having the series come full circle and see the Kazon & Ocampia again.
     
  17. Ensign Johnson

    Ensign Johnson Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I wouldn't have wanted them to kill Seven but if they did kill her it would make zero sense that the Admiral would go back in time to save her only to get her killed again. She'd just hafta go back in time again and start over. Using time travel to get home seemed like a bit of a cheat. I agree with DevilEyes that having 2 Janeways so one could be killed was having cake and eating it. But I really liked the Admiral Janeway character so I think I can forgive Endgame's cheating. For me C/7 was the worst part of the episode, I did like how shocked Captain Janeway sounded when she heard Seven and Chakotay would get married though.
     
  18. Cepstrum

    Cepstrum Commander Red Shirt

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    Funny: I had just read that Braga interview last night. I'm glad he didn't do that.

    I actually rather liked Endgame as a finale, except for the Chakotay/Seven thing out of the blue. I know most don't, so I again must be one of the odd ones.
     
  19. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If you don't mind, I guess we can be odd together because I liked it too. :lol:
     
  20. JanewayRulz!

    JanewayRulz! Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Except for the C/7 stuff, I loved Endgame, as a previous thread here can attest.