I thought Valiant was a very good episode

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by Sexy Human, Sep 5, 2012.

  1. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That would have been amusing in it's own right. Really Nog should have taken them to task or at least tried to. He was an officer himself.

    Granted he was only a few months removed from being granted a field commission in the middle of a war, otherwise he still would have been a cadet. (I always liked that they accelerated Nog's commission... that was just a small, subtle reminder that things were bad that people like Nog were being rushed into service) Thus he was only a few months removed from what was basically hero worship of Red Squad.

    Giving a group of cadets a front line ship was definitely an epic fail. A cadet ship is an interesting concept but give them an old Miranda class or something. Something they'd have a field day just to keep running it's so old, learning a lot about basic repairs and engineering along with the rest of starship operations. And if they screw it up or mass collective stupidity overwhelms them, it's not that big of a loss.
     
  2. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    NU Trek took a page right out of this episode.
     
  3. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And this is why DS9 is better... there are consequences. ;)
     
  4. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Ship load of unliked teen cadets die. Ooooh, BIG consequnces! Nothing will ever be the same again!
     
  5. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, clearly it would've been better if a ship full of teen cadets had stopped a time travelling warlord by pulling victory out of their asses.
     
  6. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    That reminds me of the time a guy prayed really hard and made a Dominion fleet vanish into thin air.
     
  7. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But Black Bajorian Jesus made good on his Second Coming!
     
  8. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well its a lot better than a plan to have a conference with other captains at the ass end of the galaxy while the Federation burns.

    Besides Kirk was leading the mission, you know the guy who pretty much all the 24th century captains hero worship to one degree or another.

    I don't get this oh their cadets thing its the TOS cast on an important mission to save Earth and therefore have plot protection like if Picard or Sisko would have had they decided to use the same plan the Valiant crew used, not some quest kids who got all uppity because they had the same class of ship as the main characters. who are only

    Nu Trek had consequences Vulcan is gone for god's sake. DS9 just killed a bunch of cadets and never mentioned it again.
     
  9. Ryan8bit

    Ryan8bit Commodore Commodore

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    How could you even circumnavigate something which isn't 2-dimensional? Even assuming they meant on the axis of the galaxy, at Voyager speeds that would imply that the Federation is about 80 lys across.

    Vulcan being gone in the movies will only affect Spock, and probably not that much. In a more developed universe, it would have serious repercussions, but I don't think the writers really care about that, probably nor should they.
     
  10. DWF

    DWF Admiral Admiral

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    Visually it's a great ep. and I wouldn't have minded seeing the Enterprise E go up against one of those superbattleships. But I don't see how anybody could really root for the kids especially after their plan failed and they didn't hightail it out of there. And what's worse is that Walters was more than a control he came across as an addict as well.
     
  11. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

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    I've never hated this ep as much as others seem to. It reminds me a lot of "The First Duty."
     
  12. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I always thought this episode would've been better served by putting O'Brien in the mix instead of Nog.

    Why?

    When Nog failed to take over and decommission Watters and turn that ship around, that was one of the most damning character FAILs you could possibly come up with.

    With O'Brien, you'd have a legitimate cause for drama, and you could do it without assassinating his character. Think about this: technically, those teenage brat cadets would outrank him, making it damned difficult for him to order them, yet he's the one with some sense and combat experience and if he tried to tell them what to do, there'd be consequences. O'Brien trying to force them to see reason and get out of whatever traps Watters tried to throw at them could work. I'd at least buy it better than the whole Nog thing.

    The episode sucked, but at least if O'Brien were there you'd have an actual explanation as to why the cadets didn't obey right away. At least not until he handed their asses to them.
     
  13. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But Nog is more interesting than O'Brien.
     
  14. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I always wondered why Nog didn't take command, but then again, looking at how the crew would react--he and Nog would have been given the death penalty in the first 20 minutes of the episode.

    The writing didn't do anything to make these characters sympathetic. They seemed really, really arrogant, especially that adorable first officer and her glaring.

    They could have brought back the data and become legendary heroes so they could become even more arrogant, but they chose to threw it all away.

    How was it that they got that Vulcan to agree with all that?

    I thought 24th century humans, especially Starfleet officers-- were supposed to be much more evolved than that?

    They could have played the Looney Toons theme in the background while they were getting blown away, and it still would have evoked no emotion.

    I actually did feel something when I first watched it, but all in all, the main reaction you get is, "they brought on themselves".
     
  15. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I never felt that because they were young idiots. I always feel bad for them.
     
  16. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Wasn't Nog's commission just as "field" as those of Watters and all the rest of them? So Nog would have no more right to take command than they.

    And since Watters was actually placed in command by the real captain (who then died), IIRC Watters IS the captain and can only be removed by an actual command level officer.

    That being said, I agree that Red Squad was a bunch of arrogant jackasses who got themselves killed. But the Klingons probably hailed them as heroes who died in battle against superior forces...a glorious death, yes, in a way?
     
  17. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Sure it shares certain themes with "The First Duty", but it isn't as good an episode as "The First Duty". In some respects the actions of that episode about elite cadet squads should have meant that this never happened. As it did it would appear Starfleet failed to learn the lessons of that episode.

    I might be mistaken but wasn't Nog's commission due to Starfleet needing people, and several cadets recieved their commissions early.
     
  18. NrobbieC

    NrobbieC Commander Red Shirt

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    Yeah Nog was officially promoted, whereas Watters etc were only acting captain and so forth iirc.
     
  19. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Nog hadn't yet completed his Academy training, and neither had Red Squad. So their commissions were all on the same level, so to speak. They were all field promotions. The only difference was Nog's uniform.

    As for Watters, like I said, the real captain of the Valiant placed him in command, and that makes it legit. When a command officer makes someone Captain, only another command officer can remove them.
     
  20. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    ^But Nog's commission was a full commission authorised by Starfleet Command, Red Squad was a field commission, wouldn't Starfleet command have to authorise them to become pernament commissions.

    And it wasn't as if Starfleet was out of contact range, whether that be by subspace radio or actually taking the Valiant to a starbase to get the commission approved. I some how suspect that Starfleet wouldn't have let them keep their ranks, maybe a commission to Ensign or Lt. JG but not to Captain.
     

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