I hope for more traditional space battles

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Infern0, Feb 4, 2013.

  1. Squiggy

    Squiggy FrozenToad Premium Member

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    Every sperm is sacred.
     
  2. UFO

    UFO Captain Captain

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    Nero had already refused the opportunity to implement such plans. What we talking about here is whether Kirk should have just gotten his butt out of Dodge, or waste time petulantly contributing his relatively impotent efforts to the inevitable demise of a defenceless foe. Neither choice is heroic, but I can't see how having Kirk commit a war crime was the way to go. That reminds me, where the hell was McCoy when they needed him? Stuffing round saving people's lives I suppose!

    To be honest I have no idea what the writers thought they were trying to achieve with that scene, beyond a "confrontation with evil" or something.

    On the other hand the use of the Genesis device to get Prime Kirk off a similar hook was really rather clever. And I just never appreciated that until I saw the ST09 version. I mean, all they needed to do was have the black hole gravity effect kick in fractionally after Nero's refusal.

    So close and yet so far.
     
  3. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    You don't appear to be taking into account the frequent attempts by filmmakers to provide the audience with a cathartic experience. Even films that are overtly trying to "make a statement", like Unforgiven, provide a moment of cathartic release (in that particular case, through the very thing the movie spends most of its time criticizing). Trek had no such aspirations, so it's cathartic moment was of a piece with the events depicted. Whether you personally found it agreeable is up to you, of course, but the fact it occurred at all, especially given current social attitudes (something reflected in pop culture all the time), should not be surprising.
     
  4. UFO

    UFO Captain Captain

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    I accept you point but I am not protesting the use of a cathartic experience. Merely the poorly thought out circumstances, IMO, of the one employed in ST09. The black hole was giving Nero his comeuppance anyway and that was the result of Spock's actions.

    I don't feel it is unreasonable to expect that the way the "heroes" defeat the villain should be, if not completely "honourable", then at least necessary (and the necessity in this case looks less likely of late). It is true that Prime Kirk has played hard ball in the past and I am not criticising that, when it was required.

    These kind of problems don't just detract from, but actively oppose the traditional notion of Star Trek (TOS) optimism in my view. Its unfortunate because it doesn't seem like the small change I advocated would effect the movie's bottom line either. I can't see anyone missing Kirk's unfortunate "Me too" moment. Did anyone really miss Kirk not shooting Khan dead in person in TWOK? Later events over-took such potential regret anyway of course.
     
  5. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    Well, there are a number of moments in ST09 that I "forgive" as I chalk them up to the writer's strike. I strongly suspect that many of the points (though certainly not all) that rile some people up would have been far less bothersome if the schedule for filming did not overlap the strike the way it did. There were similar issues with a number of film and TV productions back in the late 80s (I believe Trek V was among them, but I'm not up on the details of that period in Hollywood and I'm too lazy to look them up right now).

    I don't have trouble with Spock's reaction (his home planet was just destroyed and his mother died in front of him). IF I were inclined to nitpick, I might object to Kirk's actions, but my Star Trek nitpicking days are long gone.
     
  6. Dick_Valentine

    Dick_Valentine Commander Red Shirt

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    That's a shame because the TNG-Era "Rubber Band Effect" is my favourite special effect in all of Star Trek and I simply didn't get why they changed it to a slightly lame exhaust gas effect.
    What is that gas? Why would the Enterprise suddenly be shooting that stuff out when they hadn't before?

    The Rubber Band effect was so great in that it showed that the power involved altered the properties of the ship as it entered subspace, looked great to see that it was so fast even some parts of the ship would be travelling faster than the other half at some points.

    A massive shame the decided to jettison that part for Enterprise too, just made the whole thing less dynamic IMO

    With the TNG Era it felt like there was a template to the FX that felt great, warp effect, the way the phasers charged before firing etc.
    I liked some of the Dynamic angles used in Nemesis in the battles and it was great to finally see The Enterprise unleashing all its firepower at once instead of just one phaser or photon shot at a time, but the style of the fx themselves shouldn't be messed with.
    Otherwise you get crazy crap like phasers firing out of the photo torpedo launcher etc :p
     
  7. UFO

    UFO Captain Captain

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    Right, so you are saying he was still "emotionally compromised" and shouldn't have been on duty?

    :guffaw:Is that even possible?

    But I guess you are saying, when it comes to fictional material at least, nothing is important.
     
  8. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    So it was irresponsible for Kirk and friends to make sure that none of Nero's pals got out of the black hole. With future tech. Hellbent on making trouble. Riiiight.
     
  9. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Kirk Prime was never confronted with the man who killed his father. Never confronted with a guy who murdered six billion Vulcans.

    Kirk Prime did meet the Klingon who murdered his son. He shot him instantly, without a word.
     
  10. anh165

    anh165 Commander Red Shirt

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    Lol, listen to these Prime-Berman-era fan boys playing the moral high ground card about nuKirk.

    I see clutching at the straws.
     
  11. Borgminister

    Borgminister Admiral Moderator

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    Again with the fanboys.
     
  12. Set Harth

    Set Harth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm not sure how something really counts as a "war crime" if those killed were faced with imminent "inevitable demise" anyway.
     
  13. Kruezerman

    Kruezerman Commodore Commodore

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    Picard broke, with his own two hands, the neck of the Borg Queen. He also ordered his crew to fight hand-to-hand against those same Borg.

    Earlier he said that a lone drone should be killed. Why? Because he was Borg.

    So really, Kirk was vengeful and racist to the point of sitting back and watching the Empire burn and Picard was vengeful and racist to the point where he wanted to commit genocide, with him at the front of the battle if need be.

    So nuKirk, compared to these two and from what we've seen so far, is far more compassionate to his enemies than they have ever been.
     
  14. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    (emphasis mine)

    Even when straws are being clutched at, it ought to be possible to criticize (or even to mock) positions taken and opinions stated without taking a swipe at those who express them, so why not simply leave that part out? It's not necessary and adds nothing useful to the conversation.
     
  15. RAMA

    RAMA Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Did anyone define traditional yet? Cause the battles in DS9 were significantly different than STNG, and Enterprise came along in full CGI and further changed the style of ST space battles. STII still has the best space battle in history in it, but of course ST09 brought yet another new style and quite frankly they all work for me..
     
  16. Squiggy

    Squiggy FrozenToad Premium Member

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    I guess by "traditional" he means 4 identical ships flying in close formation.
     
  17. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    No. I'm saying I understand his reaction.

    Yes. Yes it is.

    Popcorn entertainment like Star Trek? Nothing worth losing any sleep over.
     
  18. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's between a boyship and a girlship.
     
  19. -Brett-

    -Brett- Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's tough to judge the morality of the execution scene when the circumstances are so ambiguous.

    What exactly is a "black hole" in the Abramsverse? It clearly has no relation to anything in real science. Sometimes it sends you back in time without a scratch, other times it kills you. Why does it do one thing one time and the other thing another time? Space magic, I guess.

    If it was unclear to me, it was probably unclear to Kirk too. So he made sure that the genocidal war criminal didn't survive to fuck up the universe again. Given what he knew and didn't know, I don't see any moral issue at all with it.
     
  20. anh165

    anh165 Commander Red Shirt

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    When the OP says traditional, he means the style you see in First Contact, Voyager and DS9.

    Essentially a matt grey ship flys around the enemy and fires its phasers half a dozen times with little consequence before a minor plot-twist occurs.

    Not at all exciting.
     

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