I hope for more traditional space battles

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Infern0, Feb 4, 2013.

  1. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I gotta disagree with that. I do think the nuEnterprise is more maneuverable than the original, especially in combat, even if marginally so in some people's opinions. Ditto for the Kelvin.
     
  2. anh165

    anh165 Commander Red Shirt

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    TWoK is nothing like DS9, the former is vastly superior because it had all the essential elements of setting the scene and viewers are left in no doubt that the protagonists are in a real spot of bother.

    DS9 space battles leaves most viewers feeling indifferent, and whilst some fanboys excited by some cut n paste ships shooting at some other cut n paste ships.

    ST2009's pace and presentation is indeed very different from TWoK, but ask anyone who watched the scene whether or not they felt the severity and the horror of the situation the crew of the Kelvin experienced by encountering a hostile alien. I am certain most people will take from that scene the same sort of feeling after watching the Enterprise attacked by the Reliant.





    Star trek isn't all about battles in space, I agree.
     
  3. Herkimer Jitty

    Herkimer Jitty Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Strategic? In scriptwriting terms, phasers and photon torpedoes are interchangable. There are no special tactics besides sitting across from each other and flinging salvos. One might say submarine, but I think frigate or galleon.
     
  4. anh165

    anh165 Commander Red Shirt

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    The battles on the TNG era TV shows and movies are far from submarine-esque.

    What normally happens on these types of boring battles is just an exchange of fire (usually phaser shots) - then instantly cut to the bridge with some shaky camera, some smoke, and a verbal telling to the audience about some system being off line.

    An evasive pattern alpha-gamma-episilon-etc-etc manuever is ordered, and cue hero vessel jink across the screen and just about evades enemy beam weapon (usually green or brown coloured)

    Cue more smoke and shaky cams and verbal shouts of system coupling/conduit damage.

    Rinse and repeat until help arrives or a deus ex machina plot device occurs to save the day.
     
  5. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    It is a stylistic choice. Directors almost always try to provoke a visceral response from the audience when they include depictions of battle (small or large scale). They want audiences to feel what the characters feel as much as possible, rather than offer a detached "oh look what's happening over there" sensation. It has only been possible to do so for a relatively short amount of time. The "realism" isn't about what the audience sees but rather what it feels while the battle is going on. Film has always been primarily focused on getting audiences to have an emotional response (to what degree film makers succeed is, of course, highly variable).

    Naturally some people do not like this stylistic choice. Nothing wrong with that. But directors do not owe the audience the satisfaction of their expectations. They make creative decisions that reflect their views of how to best tell the story and hope the audience agrees. Given the ubiquitous presence of the "chaos and confusion" approach to depicting conflict onscreen, I'd say most audiences don't mind most of the time.
     
  6. DarthTom

    DarthTom Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    George Lucas IMO in terms of battles was very good at setting up the drama. One great example of this was in Return of the Jedi where you had 3 separate battles occurring simultaneously. The battle on the Endor moon to take the shield station, the battle on the Death Star between Luke and Vader and of course the battle between the Empire's fleet and the rebel fleet.

    Another example of course was Revenge of the Sith where once again at the end of the film you have Yoda fighting Sidious in the senate chamber, Obi One and Anakin on the volcano planet, and the rebels retreating form the planet.

    Star Trek's battle scenes tend to be far more one dimensional versus Star Wars.
     
  7. Worfmonger

    Worfmonger Commander Red Shirt

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    This
    seems a really strange (and condescending) thing to say. The purpose isn't to confuse, it's to immerse.
     
  8. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Word.
     
  9. Ryan8bit

    Ryan8bit Commodore Commodore

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    While that is definitely true, there will always be outside pressure, whether it's from the studio, study groups, or test screenings on a random audience. It can be a more symbiotic relationship. If it were really true that a majority of people weren't jiving with it, you'd think that at least the creators would listen and consider it (I'm not sure that's the case though).

    It just seems a strange response though when someone says, "I'd like this," and others jump in to say, "Sorry, but the writers are gonna do what they're gonna do," or basically, "fuck what you want."

    I don't know how that's at all condescending.

    I wasn't the one to suggest that it's confusion. People here were saying that confusion was a large part of the immersion.
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    DS9 had some cool space battles. But they were the ones that were similar to Star Trek 2009 in that they had frenetic pacing.
     
  11. Ryan8bit

    Ryan8bit Commodore Commodore

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    I don't really care about "cut and paste ships" and I still think there are several DS9 space battles that were much more than what some here make them out to be.

    One example would be in "Valiant." The cadets in all their hubris attack a formidable foe thinking that they have the solution. But in actuality, they were tricked into thinking their solution would work. The crew goes from excitement to terror within seconds. There was tons of emotion, not just a smattering of ships all over, and on top the visuals were done pretty well.

    Of course, I speak for myself here, and not "most viewers," however that could even be known.
     
  12. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's the difference between Civil War reeanactments and real battle. The reeanactment is scripted, sterile, and slow. It's just a depiction (because who really wants to volunteer to die or be disfigured? :)). There's time for someone viewing it to take it in, think, and analyze (there's where they made their mistake; that's the turning point), but it's not real.
    Real battle is spontaneous, very real, and happens very fast. The outcome is not certain. Whether an act on the battle field is a mistake or inspired move is problematic. There is little time to think. It's mostly reacting. There's little time for analysis. The battle takes on a life of its own, and the level of confusion is high. If a director wants to give the audience a real taste of battle, those things must be conveyed. He's not diliberately trying to confuse to audience. He's conveying the reality of the moment to them.
     
  13. Ryan8bit

    Ryan8bit Commodore Commodore

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    This is the part I'm not getting in regards to Star Trek. Nothing about the space battles in any one of them is "real" at all. They will always be the civil war reenactments, regardless of if they're packed with action everywhere on the screen or if some ships are slowly drifting and firing some lasers.
     
  14. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    But one type gets the blood flowing, the other are exercises in tedium with some exceptions.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2013
  15. anh165

    anh165 Commander Red Shirt

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    It was just another scenario of David v Goliath / little ship v big ship. Combine that with poor characters and hammy acting (nothing new in DS9) - that leaves me in a position as a viewer feeling irritated by the cast.

    Irritating 2 dimensional characters overacted by their performers fails to present a convincing depiction of emotion to the viewer, all it does is 'tell' viewers what is happening rather than show.

    Very difficult to empathise with the crew if they irritate you through out the whole episode.

    I yet again go back to TWok, just 2 ships fighting at a steady pace, nothing at all like ST2009 but worked because the viewer sides with the protagonists.

    If you are a fan of a football/soccer team, you see them under attack from the opposition, you see your team players scramble back to defend, and you the fan/viewer experiences the adrenaline rush, the sense of anticipation of danger.

    Sadly DS9/Voy/some TNG battle scenes continiously fails to deliver these emotions.
     
  16. Ryan8bit

    Ryan8bit Commodore Commodore

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    Weren't you just talking about hammy acting? I mean, that's pretty much TWOK in a nutshell.

    And the Valiant crew were not to be empathized with, nor was it a David and Goliath situation, which leads me to believe you really don't know that much about it.
     
  17. Cinema Geekly

    Cinema Geekly Commander Red Shirt

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    The only thing battle wise that stuck out to me as bad was Kirk and co. firing on the Narada after it was already 95% obliterated by the black hole.

    It just didn't seem to fit well with what Starfleet people would normally do.

    "You can't escape your going to die, but we will help you"

    "I don't want your help"

    "Okay, shoot them then".
     
  18. Borgminister

    Borgminister Admiral Moderator

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    Civilization on brink of extinction:

    "Please help us, we want to live!"

    "Sorry, non-interference and all that rot.."

    "Oh, very enlightened, never mind--AAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!"
     
  19. DaveyNY

    DaveyNY Commodore Commodore

    Technically, wouldn't he have been Obi TWO ??

    <chuckle>
     
  20. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    No different than Kirk and Sulu continuing to fire on Chang's Bird of Prey after it was clearly disabled in The Undiscovered Country.

    Plus, they showed the other side of the black hole and it looked like the Narada was coming through at least partially intact.
     

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