I am taking command of the fleet.

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Captrek, Apr 7, 2013.

  1. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    How does that even work, anyway ? They removed all the borg implants... and if they didn't, well that's very worrying.

    Considering the way the movie tells it, and Wolf 359, I find that very unlikely. But then Trek always plays with the passage of time a bit.

    That's speculation. They were pretty quick to send one once they became aware that the Federation existed. And there's an entire quadrant full of species that are technologically incapable of resisting a full invasion. Why give them more time to develop defenses ?

    And I'm watching that movie in 2 minutes ! :)
     
  2. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think it's implied that it's through a telepathic link (forged during his time with the Collective) that becomes active whenever the Borg are in the neighborhood.
     
  3. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You mean the two episodes where he was mostly dealing with Borg that were disconnected from the collective?
     
  4. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Right, it doesn't make sense. Picard isn't a Betazoid. It works, plot-wise, but they should have established it in "I, Borg".

    Anyway, it's a minor point. There are far worse things in this movie, plot-wise, and we tend to give those a pass anyway.
     
  5. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Quick?
    Not even close.
    It took the borg a year to send a single cube, when it could send thousands in days.

    "Why give them more time to develop defenses ?"
    Because the borg does not care about all these species enough to actually make a serious attempt at assimilating them.

    1 cube out of millions - every few years? That is a joke - not even on the level of a skirmish for the borg.
    As said, despite the delusions of grandeur of the federation starfleet - and some trek fans - have, the borg could care less about it.

    And, seeing that the borg has MILLIONS of cubes, tech FAR more advanced that the federation and is assimilating new species, technology and territory/resources at an impressive rate, the borg can not only crush the federation at any time it feels like it, it can do the same thing in the future (even if, by some miracle, the federation manages to close the technology gap, the numerical gap remains overwhelming).


    Your turn, Belz - let us see your arguments for your position. Unless, of course, you can only write unsupported dictums.
     
  6. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Correction: it took it a year to get there. The transwarp hub thing was invented at the end of Voyager. And if they could do that, why not send a thousand, destroy the federation, and get back in time for dinner ? That way they _also_ get to keep their cubes back home.

    Again, speculation.

    That's not helping your argument. If they can do so at any time, and have demonstrated the intention of doing so, why don't they ?

    Ironic, since you now several times have stated your opinion about what the Borg think.
     
  7. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    "Descent" (before Voyager) is when we knew the borg have transwarp. But the borg had it the whole time.
    And transwarp can get cubes to the federation in hours.

    Back home doing nothing as opposed to assimilating a target. Unconvincing:
    Why would the borg do this - if it actually cares about assimilating said target, that is?

    Actually, it is helping my argument by making obvious that the "the borg do not care enough" is the justification that makes the most sense.

    Highly probable AKA supported by arguments speculation.
    "If they can do so at any time, and have demonstrated the intention of doing so, why don't they ?"
    Because they just do not care enough (AKA that intention is not all you think it is).


    My "speculation" is based on arguments and highly probable.
    You do not even have an argument beyond repeating speculation here, speculation there.
    Well, Belz, I will repeat something myself: can you actually come up with arguments to build an even marginally probable speculation yourself? Until now, you have not proven this.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2013
  8. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    So what they had in Endgame they had all along ? Boy, the Borg are really stupid.

    I don't understand what you're saying, here.

    How do you determine what's probable without references to the show ? You say they don't care, but that's not what we see on the show.

    I'm not saying it doesn't make sense. I'm saying it's contradicted by the show. As for making sense, it does, but then we have seen zero space-faring states in Star Trek, in any region of the galaxy, that can be a threat to the Borg, so if the Federation is not a priority, what is (prior to species 8472, that is) ?

    I'm not sure you're entirely clear on what's "probable" or what evidence is. But I'll agree that it's probable if only because it makes sense.
     
  9. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That would be TNG "Descent".

    The borg actions - presented on screen (and easily pointed to), that is - speak louder than words. Not that the shows give even much lip service to the notion that the borg have as a priority the assimilation of the federation.

    Of course, as always, feel free to point out the relevant on-screen evidence that the borg care so much about the federation.

    Not quite.
    Voy "Hope and fear" - we saw a species that survived the borg for centuries before being defeated. And not the borg as in a cube every now and then, but as in thousands of cubes exerting constant pressure.
    Such resistance is FAR beyond anything the federation can achieve - as proven by its pathetic performances against single borg cubes.

    And as for what are priorities to the borg - as Voy showed, species in the delta quadrant, near borg territory.
    The federation is, most likely, simply too distant for the borg to concern itself with. And it has no unusual technology that the borg particularly wants.

    You will have the right to say this when you will actually present evidence of your own; and when you will define the meaning you just used for the words "probable" and "evidence" in such a way so as not to embarass yourself.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2013
  10. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    I stand corrected. However, wasn't that not a Borg ship ?

    Well, here's the way I see it: they attack Earth twice, and in Endgame stand poised to do it a third time. To me, that's not "not caring". It seems like they very much want to assimilate Earth. Now, perhaps you can point to something that instead indicates that they don't.

    I stand corrected again. My knowledge of Voyager is a bit limited, and I didn't see all of the Borg episodes.
     
  11. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    To nitpick, we don't know that anything shown in "Descent" would be available to the Collective. It could all have been the doing of the separated group of Borg - the ones who adopted fast Drone movement, ranged personal combat weapons and freedom of emotions, among other atypical features.

    When we do see Borg transwarp in action, much later, the VFX is somewhat different, supporting the idea that Lore's Borg used something unique. Merely a development of standard Borg transwarp, or something else altogether, dug from deep in the Collective memory or adopted from Lore's infinite resources of wisdom? Hard to tell.

    It's a more general point that the Borg don't seem to evolve on timescales as short as centuries or millennia. If they have transwarp today, they probably had it three thousand years ago already. If they weren't stable like that, how come they have existed for hundreds of millennia yet not skyrocketed to some sort of a more prominent existence, through a dozen "singularities"?

    And we never learned they would have been any more powerful than the UFP, in absolute terms.

    It instead rather seems that the Borg don't care all that much about anybody, not in the sense of seeing them as threats needing to be eliminated. The Borg are invulnerable to counterattacks, and have no pressing need to cause devastation. They can assimilate on a very prolonged schedule - the slower, the better, because that gives the opponent more time to invent cool countermeasures that then fall in Borg hands.

    We see how "underwhelming" attacks are deliberately used to promote development in victims in "Child's Play". Sending individual Cubes against the UFP is quite probably just the same thing on an ever-so-slightly larger scale.

    It's probably noteworthy that "Best of Both Worlds" is the only time the Borg claim they have come to assimilate Earth, or the UFP, or whatever. Also interestingly, they do so through Locutus, not through their Collective voice. It's as if they needed the services of a dedicated liar to get their act going...

    Naah. You better just learn some manners, then learn the meaning of those words, and then return to the conversation. No action is required from the part of anybody else.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  12. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The borg sent a cube for the federation a year after encountering it, then another after a few more years.
    That, when the borg could easily have sent thousands of cubes.

    You don't send so little resources if you actually care about conquering the opponent.

    Really, Timo?
    So - either this group of drones were super geniuses (nothing showed or implied they were) or the collective at large already had transwarp (as it's established in Voy).

    You could stand to look up "probable" speculation in the dictionary, as well.

    The borg evolve - technologically - quite rapidly, as long a there's someone more advanced to assimilate.
    Singularity? In trek you only have turning into a lightbulb via spirituality hand-waving.

    The only thing that could make it clearer that they were stronger than the federation would have been to be told directly they were stronger than the federation.
    They had more advanced tech, were far more successful against far more borg than the federation, etc.

    And then there are the one planet species in the delta quadrant the borg assimilated completely and abruptly - by sending a few cubes. As opposed to sending a cube to assimilate an entire quadrant.

    There are species the borg really want to assimilate and species that don't have this "honor". The federation is among the latter.
    For this latter, one could make the argument regarding borg using them to harvest new technologies.

    The borg said they'll assimilate their targets in First Contact (while heading straight for earth) and pretty much every time they were encountered afterwards.

    An arguments-free dictum. How very not convincing.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2013
  13. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Well you're the one who said they had millions of cubes. Would it kill them to send 15 and be done with it ?

    Again, would you mind being more civil ? I don't see anything else than argument by fiat from you either. Chill a bit.
     
  14. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Which is irrelevant because we have seen Humans experience telepathic links before in which they are the receiver rather than the sender (one example is in TOS with Miranda Jones). Some telepathic races like Vulcans require physical contact to establish a link while others like Betazoids do not. Some telepathic races are so powerful that they can transmit thoughts over vast distances in space. With the Borg comprised of many races assimilated from all over known space, it's not implausible all that a telepathic race (or several) are among them and that biological distinctiveness was added to the Collective.
     
  15. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Ok, but why would Picard receive the information necessary to defeat the Cube ? Was it by accident ?
     
  16. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The borg would have to care enough in order to send 15 cubes (BTW, Voy "Scorpion" establishes the borg has millions of cubes).
    It doesn't do much for the federation's ego, does it?: to find out the federation's archenemy cares about it so little, it can't even be bothered to send a measly 15 cubes to finish it off.

    First - argument by fiat. Do you see me arguing the existence of god? Or breaking Occam's razor in my arguments?
    Do explain your claim, Belz.

    Second - If by civil you mean not calling out the obviously flawed arguments of a poster, then no - I will not pull my punches in this matter. If you come up with transparently false/obfuscating posts, I have no problem calling you out on it; nor do I consider this to be improper.
    Beyond that - I will NOT recourse to ad personams and other such tactics.
     
  17. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Definitely by accident.
     
  18. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    So now you've moved the goalposts to "don't care enough." :rolleyes:

    I have no idea what you're on about. I would think the Federation would be very happy to learn that.

    No, but your claim that they don't care is unsupported.

    No, I mean what you just posted here. You don't need to be rude. We are discussing a fictional show.
     
  19. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Really, whoever.

    "Descent" does nothing to support the latter idea. So it's fallacy for you to use "Descent" to establish anything about the Collective's transwarp capabilities.

    It's a separate matter, examined later on in case you missed it, that other episodes establish the Collective capacity. But that in turn doesn't establish anything about "Descent".

    And what is your evidence for that? The Borg technology seen in "Q Who?" and the Borg technology seen in "Endgame" don't appear to demonstrate noticeable differences - at least when you include the later episodes' retroactive establishing of many "classic" Borg features "Q Who?" was neutral about, such as nanoprobes, in ancient times already.

    Your first point fails, as we see no technology more advanced than that the UFP possesses or, according to our heroes' expert estimate, could plausibly possess. Your second point fails as success against the Borg is merely an outcome, in no way associated with defensive capabilities in the episode; it cannot be used to counter the idea that the Borg cared just as little about Arturis' species as they do about Picard's, until they decide otherwise for reason X. And your third point... Well, you don't have any "etc".

    As you yourself helped establish, there's nothing so binary about it. It's a spectrum of options, and sending of ships demonstrates interest at varying levels, whereas assimilation is but one of the things the Borg do for a living. Tickling the UFP with Cubes demonstrates interest - but it also demonstrates that the interest is not in rapid assimilation. And that's all we can say about that.

    And that's indeed the difference (possibly meaningful): the Borg merely identify ships as targets in the other encounters, and the assimilation of a species or a world seems to recede as an option, let alone a priority.

    It doesn't prove anything, but it's a semantic point we can use for supporting varying ideas about what is going on. Or then let it drop.

    If we're witnessing a "single timeline" drama, similar to Back to the Future, where only one timeline exists and is messed with (despite Doc Brown's rantings), then we must assume the Borg got what they wanted. Otherwise, they would have kept on meddling with their time machine. Thus, the loss of the Cube and later the Queen must have been a favorable or at least acceptable outcome, and in that case was unlikely to have been an accident as such.

    If it's a multi-timeline thing, then perhaps the Borg failed here, in a series of accidents that gave Picard the advantage, but succeeded in some other timeline we didn't see. The heroes live happily ever after in this timeline, the Borg do so in the other one.

    But "telepathy" doesn't strike me as the only possibility. We know UFP medical technology cannot remove even crude, macroscopic instruments such as the Wire from a brain; it's implausible that Crusher and her team could have fully cleaned up Picard in the aftermath of "Best of Both Worlds", despite their claims. Picard's blood might still be full of undetectable nanoinstrumentation, and it might only occasionally gather up into larger-scale, detectable machines such as subspace hotlines.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  20. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    "He wants responsibility for this cluster f**k? Let him have it. Anything you say, Picard!"
     

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