How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Discussion in 'Star Trek - Original Series' started by ZapBrannigan, Feb 11, 2013.

  1. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Of course it is. It has no impact whatsoever on the story if the S.S. Aurora looks as it did in TOS or TOS-R.
     
  2. Gojira

    Gojira Commodore Commodore

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    I really Enjoy TOS-R and I don't think they went far enough at times. All in all I do like what they have done.

    I wish they had gone this far...http://vimeo.com/12023417
     
  3. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Would be impressive to see an episode redone in that style. Though I would think redoing the whole series would be prohibitively expensive.
     
  4. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    A few comments on the above.

    1. Re the argument that the originals are not gone. For a lot of people they are. Go to syndication or Netflix and watch a TOS episode and you dont have the option to see the originals. So, unless you are willing to shell out money to own bluray discs, you can't watch the originals any more.
    2. Re if some of the effects in remastered are closer to what the producers originally wanted. No way of knowing. Sure, Justman gave his blessing, but that doesn't mean the specifics of the shots are closer to the original intent. After all, as has been pointed out numerous times, some of the remastered effects and other fixes actually introduced other errors.
    3. Re Spockboy's impressive CGI replacement of the bridge as a model of how far they could go. Interesting but utterly impractical.
    4. Finally, the big fault of the remastered effects is that they frequently demonstrate that the new effects team didn't understand basic cinematography. Example: the battle sequence in Elaan of Troyius is a complete mess in terms of basic (and I mean Film Composition 101) directional continuity.
     
  5. Gojira

    Gojira Commodore Commodore

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    One episode would be good but I do like to dream that they would redo the whole series that way. :)
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't know...

    The TOS bridge is like my Grandma's kitchen. I have a ton of fond memories of it and can't imagine it being any different.
     
  7. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    An argument is often made that the original creators would have done this or that given better resources such as exist today. Well there's no real way to know what they would have done. And given their perspectives during the '60s there's a damn good chance their choices (with better resources) could have been quite different than what was done with TOS-R simply because they wouldn't have been influenced by forty years of subsequent modern sic-fi in film and television as well as Trek spin-off films and TV series.

    Jefferies may have given his blessing, but he too was influenced by the intervening years. No one can know what choices he might have made if better resources had been available in 1964-69.
     
  8. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    By that same logic, we don't know that the choices made by the Robert Wise of 2001 would've been made by the Robert Wise of 1979 regarding The Motion Picture: Director's Edition.

    I'm just not offended by someone making changes to entertainment. It doesn't mean I have to agree with every choice (or any) that they make because those tinkering can easily make poor choices from my perspective.

    But when we lock something down, we essentially assign it to the dustbin of history. By doing the new effects CBS-D introduced the show to a new generation of viewers and generated discussion among those who had already seen the show multiple times.
     
  9. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, there's no proof that the new effects introduced the show to a new generation since there's no way of doing an A-B test to see how many people would have discovered it otherwise. And since fans discuss everything, our discussing the effects is no measure of success.
     
  10. Gojira

    Gojira Commodore Commodore

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    I have the original series on DVD and I can go watch them anytime. So after 40 years of watching it I would not mind seeing an even more "modern" remastered look.
     
  11. Masao

    Masao Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I want an interactive, immersive, holographic version of TOS where I can smell the sweet, honey-like odor of the "Obsession" cloud creature. Also, i want my chair to shake when the bridge explodes.

    Of course, I still can watch my VHS copies of TOS on my American-made 16-inch RCA color television set, just as they were intended to be watched! I'd rather go out about 50 light years into space so that I can intercept the original TV signals, but that's not possible yet. Then I'll be happy.
     
  12. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    It has one helluva impact -- wholly negative -- when you cut from live-action to what looks like a cartoon outside the ship, which is the net effect of most TOS-R I've squinted at. There isn't even the slightest attempt to create levels of contrast that would tie in with the way cameras saw physical objects -- actors or set walls or ship miniatures -- hence the total disconnect.

    But you clearly can't see that. Too put out by some matte lines and film grain and other aspects that put the VFX squarely (and appropriately) in the same era as the live-action, I guess.
     
  13. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    If you consider the spec eds of SW to be parody, then I guess it is okay. I think the changes are bad, but I don't care enough about STAR WARS to raise more than the occasional stink about it, though it troubles me that STAR WARS was a film selected for 'preservation' -- and yet the originals (or something fairly close to them) that are available for viewing now are limited to DVDs that are just copies of THX laserdiscs.
    (if I'm wrong about that, if they've issued a new set of 'original' versions for BR, please correct me.)

    The retcon thinking associated with, 'this is what they would have done if they had more money or more time' is as much a matter of revisionism as truth, probably moreso. The changes Wise indicated he wanted to make in TMP in the year or two after it released don't correspond with the changes that turn up in the alleged director's edtiion, even though that was promoted (and largely accepted) as 'this is what he would have done if he had the time.' It is much more likely this is SharpLineArts' vision of what TMP was supposed to be, though it incorporated some more mundane continuity bits that Wise DID ask for.

    Wise DID have the time on the original TMP to keep Matt Yuricich's original Vulcan matte painting, which was tons better than what went into the theatrical version OR the cutgame looking thing cobbled together for the DVD DE ... but he apparently chose not to include it, god knows why.

    Except for the occasional total misfire FX-wise on TOS (TOMORROW IS YESTERDAY is I guess the prime example), I don't think there's a lot of ship VFX that really would have benefitted from tons more money being thrown at them. Maybe reshooting some ship passes so there wasn't the really bad bleedthrough or chattering on the mattes, but shoot, if those were really bothersome they could have used other shots (like those near-perfect close shots of the ship pivoting that really show the nacelle caps to glowing effect.)
     
  14. Lenny Nurdbol

    Lenny Nurdbol Lieutenant Commander

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    Because these "fanzines" (not really what I'm talking about, but discrete blueprint packs) expanded upon--built upon--the little genre known as Tech Fandom... This is the legacy of Franz Joseph & Friends... Pushing the envelope of analyzing and blueprinting everything that ever was in Star Trek... Taking this universe as though it were plausible and scientifically sound and real... But I of course can't expect the uninitiated to possibly understand...

    Don't talk to me about fans who never had any connection... I say this for 2 reasons:

    First, anyone serious enough and talented enough in drafting and blueprinting can analyze things and put 2 and 2 together... And draw and make assumptions and Build upon previous works and Extrapolate from previous works... They don't have to be "blessed" by Gene Roddenberry or any other deity connected to the show; they simply have to be able to Do Their Homework Right...
    I can also talk about another fan who spent years reading and re-reading hundreds of Trek books and Documenting tiny bits of trivia for inclusion in a massive timeline... He wasn't "blessed" either, just a Fan... But he did his work well...

    Secondly, and this is really obvious... The blind worship of anyone who takes the center seat... Let me throw some names around here: J.J. Abrams, Roberto Orci, and Alex Kurtzman... It took the combined intellect of these kids to create something which no man has ever created before, and I think you have a good idea of what I'm talking about... Basically, the least talented persons together in the right place and the right time--and with NO qualifications whatsoever or even a liking of Star Trek (half of them weren't even Born when TOS first aired)...
    I'd sooner see Kraith and other old zine series become elevated to something worthy of being filmed or cataloged long before I give this trio any credit...
    You see, there's a big freaking difference here: the people who did Kraith were Fans and it was a work of Love trying to flesh out a background for Vulcans and Surak's Construct... Oh, and yeah, they Did have some contact with deities--D.C. Fontana was one... The trio I mention above are nothing but talentless hack kids who'd just as well make Transformers 4 thru 40 and cash-in on every cent they can wring out of robo-brained fan tots... Now read my lips: They Do Not Understand Science Fiction... The closest they get to SF is Comic Books... They've no love for Trek--it's just the latest and greatest cash cow that's fallen into their lucky laps to fuel their millionaire lifestyles!
     
  15. Lenny Nurdbol

    Lenny Nurdbol Lieutenant Commander

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    Really the wrong thread to discuss it... I agree with you that Greg Cox is an above-average Trek writer (too much in the "continuty porn" department for my taste though--Not the problem with this particular book though!), but "Rings" was So far off the beaten path of his style of writing that I'm almost convinced that he had someone ghostwrite that thing... Starts out promising (and I was hoping there'd be a nice temporal twist--boy was I let down!) but by the time you realize there's only a few pages left and there's no way to satisfactorily conclude it, he makes a sharp turn and disappoints...
    (I'm talking about something just short of It-was-all-a-dream kinda thing, for Gene's sake!)

    Basically I got the impression that this was to be a Much longer, better novel and he just ran out of time, or effort, or something and said screw-it, and decided to whip up a hair-brained conclusion in 10 minutes out of thin air and be done with it...

    It's unquestionably Cox's worst Trek novel of all-time...
    Very disappointing...

    Rates right up there with a first-time Trek author's work from the previous year... Forgot the title of it... A Treknical award-winner though for featuring cameos from just about every crewmember on the Enterprise, all 400 of them (or it certainly Read that way!)...and contained such brilliant logic such as relocating the Bridge to Sickbay!
     
  16. Lenny Nurdbol

    Lenny Nurdbol Lieutenant Commander

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    One question: Where do you draw the line?

    I'll give you my own personal answer: you draw the line once the finished product is released, be it aired or shown in a cinema... After that it Should be left alone... Preserved yes, but not revamped, special editioned, directors cutted, or CGIed... This is pretty much the problem I have with new movies these days... It seems that the one released theatrically just isn't good enough for today's audience and they need to see alternate versions, re-releases, and whatnot... Now I've nothing against seeing some cutting room footage and trims in a special package, but not put back into a movie JUST SO IT CAN BE RE-RELEASED TO MAKE MORE MONEY...
    (And yeah, I'm also in the minority again, opposed to the the "Director's Cut" of ST-TMP... I liked both the theatrical version and even the extended network TV version, but the final hyped thing they put out with a new Vulcan, removing the jazzy alert klaxon sound, and even taking out the computer voice--was going too frigging far! If they took out the masculine computer voice--then why didn't they also take it out from the opening scene of ST II? You know "Klingons on attack course and closing... Object is a Third Class Neutronic Fuel Carrier, Crew of 81, 300 passengers...")...
     
  17. Lenny Nurdbol

    Lenny Nurdbol Lieutenant Commander

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    If I had one of those on my bedside table, I'd never leave the bed... It'd be better than sex...
     
  18. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    If these are so well researched, why doesn't the S.S Aurora have the same nacelles it did in the episode? Why doesn't the Independece-class freighter match the S.S Huron from "Pirates of Orion"? I love those old fan-made blueprints too, but they took plenty of liberties with the source material. Not that it's a crime to do so - I just don't think they're as well researched as you believe.

    Also, Franz Joseph was not a fan of Star Trek! His daughter Karen was. You *really* should read that link I keep giving you.
    http://www.trekplace.com/fj-kdint01.html
    She is the reason Tech Fandom exists. He blueprinted the Enterprise for her.
    Star Trek and Into Darkness co-writer Roberto Orci is a die-hard fan. He even has shelves of Trek novels. I know you disagree, but I thought the movie was a loving tribute to Star Trek - there were references to episodes, movies, novels and please tell me you recognized the influence of Roger Sorensen's 1983 Kobayashi Maru blueprints on the movie veraion of the USS Kobayashi Maru? The man himself did and was thrilled. The movie artists were given that blueprint pack and the cover of Julie Ecklar's novel (depicting the Spaceflight Chronology version) to work from. See here for details: http://johneaves.wordpress.com/2009/11/29/3869/
    It seems Into Darkness takes some pretty big cues from novels too.
    Finally the people in charge are looking beyond "canon" for inspiration. I love it.
    Harve Bennett and Nicholas Meyer were not Star Trek fans. They're on record as such. Being a Trekkie is most definitely not a prerequisite to making a good Star Trek film. An understanding of what made Trek great definitely is... but I think you and I are going to disagree on what that is, exactly. Abrams tapped into the Trek that I love. IDIC and all that, right?:)

    As much as I would love JJ Abrams' money, I won't hate on the guy just for being rich. Jealous, yes. Hate? No. Do you really think the other Trek filmmakers weren't financially very well off also?

    I was born in January 1984. Does that make me less of a fan? We may have different viewpoints on what makes good Star Trek, we may like different elements of it to different extents. I have hundreds of novels, comics, manuals, fan materials. I don't love or even like them all, but I love Trek.
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    First night after I got it, I was sitting in bed playing with it and my wife asked if she should sleep on the floor so we could be alone. I told my wife yes and to leave one of her pillows for the Enterprise.

    She was not amused... :rofl:
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2013
  20. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Matte lines and film grain vs. low-poly models and overlighting.

    It's wrong and, quite frankly, insulting to insinuate that people can't see the flaws in the new effects. You've obviously missed some of the conversations between RAMA and myself over the quality of the new effects.

    Blind worship? I've thoroughly tore Star Trek 2009 a new ass because of what I saw as story flaws. But a couple of things saved it for me, I liked how the film was directed and I thought the actors were, for the most part, pretty good portraying the characters I grew up with.

    I think if you reread the book, you'll see where he was going with it pretty early on.

    I draw the line with my wallet/time. If they go in a direction I disapprove of, I simply withhold my cash. Same with any other product I'm interested in purchasing.