How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Discussion in 'Star Trek - Original Series' started by ZapBrannigan, Feb 11, 2013.

  1. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Commodore Commodore

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    I'm imagining Marta's explosive demise in "Whom Gods Destroy" and wondering if the CGI artists should have added a big splash of green blood smacking the window and running down, leaving a stain.
    [​IMG]

    In other words, should they have traded historicity for impact?

    The CGi was very restrained throughout the series, and I wonder if they could have done a little more here and there without straying too far from the original feeling. Note that the original was restrained by a combination of budget, technology, and the broadcast standards of the time, so it wasn't necessarily the "intent" of the creators.
     
  2. plynch

    plynch Commodore Commodore

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    Once you're changing things, why not? Eliminate those toupee lines people report seeing, or continuity errors. Have a voice actor read in a Balok line so Sulu's line makes sense.

    Not being sarcastic, here. I'd probably still prefer the old dvd's, but once you cosmetically change the Enterprise, a main character, even how she moves, why not change more? Didn't they change Sulu's chronometer? Stuff like that. Or "one to the tenth power" in Court Martial.

    Why not make a new physical model of the Ent and shoot her under similar lights and film grain, rather than CGI? Just do it with what is currently the best tech. Change rank braids that make no sense. Keep going, once the cows are out of the barn.
     
  3. Robert D. Robot

    Robert D. Robot Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Seeing Marta's blood splattering across a window would have strayed quite a bit from the original feeling, in my opinion. LIGHT YEARS away-- and in a direction that I would not appreciate seeing. Showing Remmick's head exploding in TNG's "Conspiracy" was not a good creative choice, in my opinion. Adding such elements from Slasher/Splatter Films is a trek that I am glad they chose not to take.
     
  4. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    They should have either kept TOS exactly the same, scene for scene or gone George Lucas insane, adding much more detail to the ships and alien crewmemembers in the background.

    I think the latter could have been a lot of fun - I'd love to see Arex on the bridge manning a previously empty station, or Kirk and Spock walk past M'ress in a hallway. Replace the obvious pictures hung around the bridge with animated displays. Re-edit the Klingon fleet scene in "Errand of Mercy" so you see an enourmous fleet made up of a variety of Klingon ship types, one leading ship takes a warning potshot at the Enterprise. Have the M-5 take on an upgraded Phase II-style Connie, a Franz Joseph Dreadnought and a TOS-style Miranda. Add a window or two to the recreation room.
     
  5. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm of two minds on it. Part of me would have preferred they replicate the original effects shots to keep the original feel while still making them appropriate for the HD transfers. I'm not all that thrilled with the live action changes (the phaser firing in the corridors of Wink of an Eye for example), but the matte painting updates were very cool. For some reason, I also don't really like the super duper close ups of the Enterprise as it flies across the screen (See Return of the Archons). I prefer to see the whole ship.

    On the other hand, going a little further gave us a sequence at the end of Tomorrow is Yesterday that not only clarified the slingshot effect, it became an exciting sequence as well.

    Blood spattering? I don't think we need that in Star Trek ever. Her death by explosion was effective enough as is. Where is the line, if you go that far? Do they CGI in a boner every time Kirk sees a hot chick?
     
  6. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's kind of hard to say what "the intent of the creators" actually was, though. Unless the people behind TOS-R roused up Bob Justman out of his nap every single day and marched him down to CBS-D to personally sign off on every detail... ;)

    I think production personel on something like Star Trek always did their best with what they had. Sure, they would always have liked to do things differently, if they'd had more time and money. But ultimately, in my view, a product of the sixties is a product of the sixties, and adding extraneous CGI to it certainly does not fulfil "the intent of the creators". All it does do is polish up something old to a more modern standard that will, regardless, never actually 'be' a modern production. IMO if anything, adding CGI (or whatever else) to Star Trek isn't really about realising "the intent of the creators" at all. That's where I think a lot of fans make a mistake. It's more about meeting the expectations of a modern audience. :vulcan:
     
  7. Noname Given

    Noname Given Vice Admiral Admiral

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    What would b the point of adding more 'gore' to the scene? Also, TOS (and other Star Trek series) are currently considered (for the most part) 'safe' family viewing. Why wpould you want to change that?
     
  8. Redfern

    Redfern Commodore Commodore

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    For that matter, do we know for certain Orion Slave Girl blood is green? (Did they show it in that 4th season episode of Enterpries? The show was pulled in my area before it aired.)

    Sincerely,

    Bill
     
  9. Metryq

    Metryq Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I like some of the TOS-R effects, while disliking others. This is not a rabid preservationist attitude so much as an aesthetic judgment. Many of the new FX simply do not match the style of the rest of the show—like bits of cursive brush script in the middle of a page of plain, sans serif text, or maybe a rock'n'roll guitar riff in the middle of Vivaldi's SPRING.

    As Noname remarked, gore would be out of style for TOS. There is also a "zeitgeist" issue. During the '60s Ginger and MaryAnn on GILLIGAN'S ISLAND and Jeannie on I DREAM OF JEANNIE did not show their bellybuttons on TV. The makers of STAR TREK spoke in parables to get their message past the network censors. Add gore to that? Seeing Marta choke in the poisonous atmosphere was enough. No need to Spielberg it up with inyerface FX.
     
  10. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Commodore Commodore

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    If it hit the window, we'd know. The remasters are considered canon. Or maybe canon-R would be a good name for it.
     
  11. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Commodore Commodore

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    I can see that. I think the problem is that STAR TREK so often had somebody die "to show the situation is serious" (a la GALAXY QUEST), and sometimes many people died, but the show also wanted a lighthearted, happy ending to almost every episode. So that was yet another reason to make the deaths hygienic and tidy.

    At the end of "Whom Gods Destroy," if Kirk was having his little joke about Spock letting himself get hit on the head-- but Marta's bloody splash was still imprinted on the viewer's mind, it would clash. If the stained window had been in the actual scene behind Kirk and Spock for that moment, it would clash awesomely and almost sabotage our protagonists. But it's interesting to think about.
     
  12. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    The explosive wouldn't be the "most powerful one in history" if it left any trace of Marta. Just sayin' :D
     
  13. Oso Blanco

    Oso Blanco Commodore Commodore

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    They have already gone too far, for my taste.
     
  14. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's a great idea Zap, a way of nicely separating the revision, from the original.

    :cool:
     
  15. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    How far? To the end of the driveway and back.
     
  16. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Commodore Commodore

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    Here’s another case I’ve thought about:

    In "Obsession," (spoiler alert) Kirk sets off a bomb that rips away half a planet's atmosphere and presumably ends all life there. The remaster adds a cool touch, showing the planet slightly scarred as the ship pulls away at the end. Note that the original fx showed you nothing of the damage done.

    I found myself wishing CBS had done a little more, like showing a debris cloud erupting from the now-dead planet's pulverized crust. It would clash with the happy ending and upbeat music score as the Enterprise sails away, but maybe that very clash would add a jolt of realism and irony to the episode.

    The macho, non-hippie '60s ethos (which I love), where the good guys can blow up a whole planet and think nothing of it, and Now it's Miller Time, would be highlighted and recognized better with more vivid planetary devastation in the new fx.

    It would up the ante a little on the portrait of Kirk as a space cowboy who plays by nobody’s rules but his own. He wasn’t going by the Carol Marcus ethos (“there can’t be so much as a microbe…”), based on the fear that sentient life might evolve billions of years from now if only we don't disrupt things. He would have sputtered at that and said “You’ve got to be kidding me.”
     
  17. Metryq

    Metryq Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I agree with this change, though I haven't seen it yet. It would contrast the ultra-left policies that aim to completely immobilize us—such as preventing a desert city from repairing its water works because it might threaten the habitat of an endangered owl whose actual presence in the area is ambiguous.

    Off-topic, but the one clash that always stands out in my mind is the ending of "The Paradise Syndrome." There is sad music as the titles roll, and Kirk's pregnant wife dies in his arms. Cymbal crash! Then the Enterprise galloping off into the sunset music.
     
  18. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    :lol: If this was the one time shot attempting TOS-R, I agree.

    As a purist, the Blu-ray discs gave me the choice to watch the original version instead (except for a technical problem on "The Ultimate Computer" at the first seconds).

    But other than the beautiful and enhanced new matte paintings, some obvious fixes (Enterprise in darkness zone in "The Immunity Syndrome", after M-5 has switched off the lights on some decks in "The Ultimate Computer") the whole TOS-R excercise lacks passion for TOS in my humble opinion. One might say they got it halfway right but I'd feel TOS deserved a more passionate treatment.

    Bob
     
  19. MickJo1701

    MickJo1701 Commander Red Shirt

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    I liked a lot of the work in TOS R, most of the additions and matte's looked excellent. It probably would have worked better if CBS D wasn't fighting such a tight schedule.

    If money was no option I'd have loved them to recreate the motion control passes of the Enterprise and other ships in TOS instead of producing not terribly convincing CGI.
     
  20. Metryq

    Metryq Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    CGI technology is not the problem. How it is handled by the artists, producers, directors, etc. makes the difference. I can appreciate all the work that went into the new FX, even though I do not like many of them. My gripe is not that the new shots look too clean or too new or whatever. I dislike many of the shots I've seen because they do not match the style of the original show. They simply do not mesh with the rest of the show around them. Showing up on a grasshopper green rice burner at a Harley convention would have the same effect. There's nothing wrong with the crotch rocket. It just doesn't fit in.

    Motion controlled miniatures could prove as unsatisfactory if the artists and other creators in the pipeline make the "wrong" choices.