How did V***GER know how to say "V'ger"?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by gottacook, Nov 23, 2013.

  1. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Oh boy. That star thing next to the two humans is supposed to be the sun's position in relation to 14 pulsars? Who the hell are they kidding. Nobody is going to understand the meaning of that.
     
  2. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Just as an aside, here, it was my understanding - or is it a myth? - that had Voyager 1 been programmed by NASA to change its path to investigate Pluto, it would've gone on to leave the Solar System and, even now, would be heading towards Alpha Centuri? Only they changed this plan, to investigate Titan, which turned up nothing, of course, due to its opaque atmosphere.
     
  3. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    There was some consideration of aiming it for Pluto, yes, but I can find no indication that a Pluto flyby could have put it on course for Alpha Centauri. It would've been difficult enough to arrange a flyby of multiple planets and moons in our system alone; it would've been an incredible stroke of luck if it could also have been aimed toward Alpha Centauri, and there would've been no point in trying to arrange that since there'd be no hope of getting any data back for 40,000 years.

    You're probably thinking of all the sites that say "It would take 40,000 years for Voyager 1 to reach the nearest star, Alpha Centauri," but that's just being used as an example of an interstellar distance. Although Alpha Centauri is currently the probe's guide star, the reference it uses to maintain attitude so that its antenna remains pointed toward Earth.
     
  4. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Understood! Thank you, Christopher.

    Yes, you are quite correct about the futility of sending a manned probe to another star considering that the distances are so vast, even for a star system as close as Alpha Centuri. This has gotten me to wondering though, about TMP's insistance that VOYAGER 6 had it stipulated in its program to "Learn All That Is Learnable. Transmit That Data To The Creator." Once we get a load of the thing ... hey, what do you know? Looks just like the Voyagers NASA really did send out, but I doubt they have any of that in their memory banks.

    Is this an inference on the part of the Computer Planet which saves V'ger, based on its cameras and suite of instruments and transmitter? I ASSume that Spock is simply using some type of shorthand when he explains V'ger's origins in this manner. But considering the mission V'ger actually is on, I don't know. I think we're honestly meant to believe that some engineer at NASA programmed this whole "Creator" business into Voyager, in the first place. This is very hard to reconsile.
     
  5. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Oh, I'm definitely not saying it's futile to build an Alpha Centauri probe. On the contrary, there's a lot of promising research into ways of achieving that with travel times of less than a human lifetime. I'm just saying that it would've been prohibitively difficult to make that a mission goal of one of the Voyager probes in addition to all their in-system targets, given the complexity of arranging multiple rendezvouses and the limitations on the Voyager probes' velocity. It's the kind of mission that would call for a dedicated probe.

    And yes, in my TMP-sequel novel Ex Machina, I did have Spock explain that the Machine race had inferred Voyager 6's mission from its construction and software protocols. Its actual programming would've been far more basic -- operate sensors, record data, point antenna toward this target, transmit data -- and that would have led them to deduce that its mission goal was to gather information and transmit it to Earth.
     
  6. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Unfortunately, I do not see an Alpha Centuri mission on the horizon. But putting discs of gold and records and every indication of who and what we are on the VOYAGER probes would've made alot more sense if, indeed, they were enroute to the nearest star. Now, who the balls knows where they'll end up? Probably nowhere, just floating like debris, for all eternity. This whole idea of one such probe falling into a Black Hole sounds very childish to me, as well. We all know that Black Holes will simply crush anything out of existance. It couldn't possibly serve as passage to the far corners of the galaxy. Was this just a Seventies' idea?

    I liked what you had mentioned before, about Decker's supposed infatuation with Mysticism, which just-so-happens to be what was hip in real life, at that time. I have been trying to explore this further, but there is not much record of it, that I have been able to turn up. But layer upon layer, this movie seems to be trying to tie in Humanity's self-perception at that time with the resolution of TMP's storyline. GR went down some interesting roads, here, with Robert Wise and the rest. It's such a shame this is not so evident onscreen. So, tell me Christopher, is your V'ger book trying to make a Borg connection? The Borg seem so far removed and their concerns and M.O. are so very different, that I do not see these two equating.
     
  7. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    No, but we'll never get anywhere in interstellar exploration if we limit our imaginations to "the horizon." It's the kind of undertaking that demands a longer-term mentality, planning on the scale of centuries, like the way medieval Europeans designed and built cathedrals. It's not about our own gratification, it's about a legacy for our descendants. Unless we learn to think and act in multigenerational terms once again, we'll never get anywhere in exploring or colonizing the stars.

    I recommend browsing around this blog for a while:

    http://www.centauri-dreams.org/


    Actually it makes some sense if you assume it was a rotating black hole approximating a Tipler cylinder. An object passing through the ergosphere of a rotating (Kerr) black hole -- essentially brushing the edge of the event horizon rather than falling in -- could conceivably be sent on a closed timelike curve into the past.

    The spatial relocation is harder to justify. A sufficiently large black hole would have a mild enough gravity gradient that an object could conceivably survive passage through the event horizon, and a Kerr BH would have a ring-shaped singularity that could theoretically function as a "portal" to another region of spacetime. But we'd be talking something on the scale of a supermassive, galaxy-center black hole rather than something that could pass near Sol System undetected.


    I'd say the main sources for that are the Roddenberry novelization and The Making of Star Trek: The Motion Picture by Susan Sackett and Roddenberry.


    Absolutely, emphatically not. In fact, I went out of my way to present a version of V'Ger's backstory that was completely incompatible with the ridiculous idea that it had anything to do with the Borg.
     
  8. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    'Cos the Robinson family were already headed there.

    You don't get around much. ;)

    The novelization of TMP contains most of what we know about Decker's beliefs and aspirations.

    The Perscan monitor buckles on the Starfleet uniforms were said to measure biorythms, also very "hip in real life" in the mid-70s when TMP was in pre-production.
     
  9. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    The bottom illustration with the distinctive planets of our system and the probe's departure point cleearly says "Here we live" (and don't mind being found).

    But given the vastness of space that's definitely not enough, so you have the pulsars and their wavelength's and relative distances to our system as a means to triangulate.

    This is a simple, elegant and logical concept. Practically, you can't get "Lost in Space" because the pulsars / quasars and their different wavelengths serve as galactic GPS satellites.

    I'd say that any spacefaring civilization would make use of these "GPS" celestial bodies - and therefore understand the message.

    The central console on the refit bridge shows these pulsars / quasars to pinpoint the Enterprise's location in space.

    Bob
     
  10. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I shall do so

    I ... I suppose so.


    These words please me.

    "The Robinson Family," you say ... interesting. Interesting!

    I love this, getting all into the fine details of TMP, where we find out that even the costumes are very much in service of the story. I really love The Motion Picture, partly because there is so much to mine from, with it. Lord knows, the rest of the franchise certainly did.

    Unfortunately, I am not familiar with why biorythms, or mystic beliefs were a turn-on, in the Seventies, just as technology was taking true root in every day terms. How could anyone justify believing that Love Potions work, even to themselves, knowing full-well that it's all just a bunch of simple tricks ... and nonsense.
     
  11. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Well, because biorythms used technology and mathematics, like astrology, but the readings seemingly made more sense than horoscopes, which simply divided the Earth's population into twelve each day.

    A school friend had a cute little biorhythm calculator and we used to always know which were our "good" days for our physical, emotional and intellectual states - and heaven forbid if an exam was scheduled for the day when all three aspects were in the low range. A good day to stay in bed!

    http://www.facade.com/biorhythm/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biorhythm
     
  12. scotpens

    scotpens Vice Admiral Admiral

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    A properly cast horoscope is much more complex that just a person's sun sign.

    Not that it matters, of course -- it's still a load of horse poop.
     
  13. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I do believe that personality types can be - and probably even are - dictated by whatever Season a person found themselves born in. Their basic personality is formed in, and altered by, the seasonal environment that's more-or-less imprinted upon them, as they become more aware. And there would be several factors involved with an assessment like that, but I'd suspect that's why Horoscopes continue to seem to hold credence with so many, even today. Naturally, I can take any horoscope, really, and apply its forecast to something happening to me, right now. But is it the illusion of control these people seek, or is it desperation that drives them into this direction? I wonder ...
     
  14. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Err, it takes years for someone's core personality to form, so everyone would experience every season multiple times in their formative years. And they'd have no memory of what season they experienced first. Not to mention that different parts of the world have different seasonal cycles -- e.g. cold, dry, and monsoon rather than winter, spring, summer, and autumn.
     
  15. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well ... it was nice whilst it lasted.
     
  16. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I love it when people try to use lunar tidal force and tides to justify some aspect of astrology, completely miscomprehending how tidal forces work. Ah, ignorance.
     
  17. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    ;) I pity any child born last spring in London, Paris, Glasgow and Edinburgh, because they were still having... winter. I was in it!
     
  18. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Therin, I only recently realized that you were the president of your local STAR TREK fan club, back when STAR TREK: The Motion Picture was first released. I was reading a little about your exploits in this capacity in another thread, on this site. I apologize for not remembering which one it was, at the moment. In any case, I really never felt such a compulsion, myself. And to be perfectly honest, here in Philadelphia, PA, I don't believe there is a huge STAR TREK fan base. Although, Cherry Hill, New Jersey, which is close-by, hosts annual conventions and ... and so forth. I'm content to watch the shows and chat about it. I don't think I even owned a STAR TREK costume, when I was a small child. I don't even any TREK merchandise, as an adult. I have a couple novels, that's about it. So, to find out just how involved you really are on the fandom side of town, is very interesting. You sound like the go-to guy for all things STAR TREK ...
     
  19. gottacook

    gottacook Captain Captain

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    Sir Frakes, do I correctly infer that you lived in Phila. when TMP came out? I saw it (twice) at the big-screen Fox theater across the street from City Hall, the second last feature ever to play there. I lived in center city at the time (although not in PA since 1982) and as a kid saw 2001 at the same theater, in Cinerama.
     
  20. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    "Therin, I only recently realized that you were the president of your local STAR TREK fan club, back when STAR TREK: The Motion Picture was first released," was what I actually wrote, GottaCook. Maybe it's the accent I'm wearing ...

    It's cool that you spent time here in Philadelphia, PA, where bookending all of this city's poverty and dispair are the affluent suburbs and the wealth of center city. The touristy areas are well-policed and we do have a very robust cultural district that's one of the oldest in the country. We are a college town with many a Night Club along the Waterfront. Philly is not a mecca for STAR TREK fans, however. But we've had some great movies made here. In particular, one of my favorites: 12 Monkeys! It's the total Sci-Fi package, as far as I'm concerned ... Oh, and by the way, I do like your "Sir" usage, in association with my name. Makes me feel a kinship with Sir Patrick Stewart. But, yes, back to STAR TREK: It surprises me the kinds of fans that use this site. Everything from STAR TREK novelists to Fan Club Presidents ...