How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDominion

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Enterprise' started by t_smitts, Feb 9, 2014.

  1. AverageWriter

    AverageWriter Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    Yes, Scotty's line in Balance of Terror about the Romulans using "simple impulse" has been a source of discussion for quite some time.

    Of course, we could extrapolate, if the cloak was used but never revealed as being used during the war, then Spock's line could hold some water- a cloaked ship can't fire a torpedo, but it could launch a "primitive space vessel" (an automated one) out the back of a cloaked ship. That primitive vessel would begin, at a set point, to suddenly start launching nuclear weapons at a planet. That would reconcile what was said in Balance of Terror, would it not?

    The Romulans could wage an entire war and cause massive casualties without ever even risking one of their own ships, or a single crewman.
     
  2. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    The romulans used large-scale cloak during the war and, a century later, Spock is surprised the romulans can hide their ships?
    The Federation doesn't have a dozen theories about how the romulans did it? In a century, the Federation did not develop the technology so successfully used by the romulans?

    AverageWriter, this is yet another convoluted explanation that doesn't hold water when examined in detail.
     
  3. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    Enterprise already established Romulan cloaking devices in the 2150's. It was a straight-up retcon, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't need 'fixing' and if fans can't enjoy both "Balance of Terror" and "Minefield" because they disagree on few lines, they're watching Star Trek wrong.
     
  4. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    That didn't stop a LOT of fans - in this thread, too* - (and even some professional writers - see the recent rather tedious romulan war books) from trying. And largely failing to come up with a satisfactory explanation.

    *Which is entirely appropriate, considering the thread title, despite your opinion, King Daniel Into Darkness. BTW, haven't you been trying to reconcile various contradictions from trek canon in this very forum?

    PS - I do agree that, if and when the discussions degenerate into ~'it rapes my childhood' statements (it's been known to happen) - well, their only remaining value is their unintentional hilarity.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
  5. AverageWriter

    AverageWriter Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    Edit XYZ-

    I don't appreciate your tone.

    I also note that in your haste to make your rather inflammatory post, you neglected to notice that my last post detailed how the Federation could be entirely unaware of the use of cloaking technology during the war, as well as being under the impression during that same war that the Romulans tech was "primitive". There's nothing "convoluted" about using smart tactics during a war, neither is there anything "convoluted" about using "paper walls" to give the enemy a different impression about the enemy than is truth.

    At the time of the first war, the Romulans knew that an outright, ship vs. ship firefight style war would leave them at a tactical disadvantage. They couldn't outgun or outrun the humans, but they knew that they had both the elements of surprise and the singular cloaking technology that the humans didn't.

    It is completely reasonable to assume that, when faced with that prospect, that the Romulans would do everything possible to use the cloak to their advantage while at the SAME time trying to ensure that the humans never caught on. It's not "convoluted"- it's a smart strategy that ensures that your enemy never figures out how to corner you. They think that you've got "small, primitive ships" that somehow are quickly warping into a region and launching assaults. The use of automated strike vessels also ensures that, during the war, the humans never see a Romulan (which is explicitly stated during Balance of Terror).

    Such tactics would undoubtedly be very costly and time intensive- chances are, realistically, even using tactics that one would think to be flawless, eventually the war funds would run out. The humans outlasted them until victory at Cheron.

    I expect more from this forum than what you posted.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
  6. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    AverageWriter

    I see you insist on a baby steps analysis. Very well.
    Either
    1 Your 'small, primitive ships' will be seen exiting from the cloaking fields of other ships AKA the federation easily becomes aware of the romulan cloack.
    Or
    2 The cloaked ships, at all times, stayed beyond the sensor range of the federation - in its own territory filled with patrols, sensor posts, etc - which means:
    -cloak tactics will not be making an appearance in this romulan war beyond a few lines from the romulan side;
    -for your small, primitive ships to be able to fool the federation in thinking there are no mother ships, they need to have long range warp capability - at the very least. Meaning, the non-idiotic strategy for the romulans would be to just send these small, primitive ships - now not so primitive long range warp ships - from Romulus, skipping the cloaked mother ships step;
    -the Federation not 'seeing', even once during the war, how, in its own space, small, primitive ships exit from the mother ships; or not deducing the existence of romulan cloaking technology that hides their ships until they're deep in federation space is both convoluted and makes the Federation people seem inept;
    -the federation is now depicted, again, as highly incompetent in not even being able to stop small, primitive ships while they come from far beyond the star system/beyond federation space;
    -etc

    Anyway you try to twist it, your explanation remains highly convoluted; indeed, it has de facto become just a vehicle to use the word 'cloak' during the romulan war, sacrificing large chunks of story believability for this.
    PS - This won't change no matter how annoyed you are by this fact, AverageWriter.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
  7. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    Since when are Remans the same species as Vulcans and Romulans? Just because they have pointed ears and mental abilities? That would make the Ocampa Vulcans too.

    Remans are a completely different species.

    Or take the line into account and build the storyline accordingly.

    That thought line would require that those thousands saw a Romulan in the first place. Instead of a few dozen or a hundred people, military personnel routinely keep high level secrets for the entirety of their lives.

    Recovered Romulan bodies (especially after a space battle) could easily be mangled beyond immediate identification. And a captured prisoner wouldn't interact with the majority of the crew, just a few officer and the guards.

    Something like the regular use of flashbacks in the series Highlander perhaps?


    :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
  8. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    A laudable goal.
    So far, everyone failed in dientangling this Gordian knot.

    For example, your latest attempt:
    The remans are expressly established as a vulcan race in 'Vulcan's soul' trilogy. Since trek lit is not canon - point taken.

    Let's go to the 'Balance of terror' lines you're trying to work with:
    "this conflict was fought,[...] By our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels[...] Which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other."

    'no ship to ship visual communication'?
    Some semantic trickery may help with this - as it helped with Scotty's 'simple impulse'.
    So, Spock's vulcan brain was sloppy and he meant to say 'Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication used' as opposed to 'primitive space vessels where there wasn't even ship-to-ship visual communication'.

    'no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other'?
    ally=reman. None seen during the war.

    A conflict involving billions, with forces/ground battles large enough to affect interstellar empires? That translates into, at the very least, thousands of civilian/military seeing said ground forces.

    What are the chances that all romulans/remans recovered during space/gound battles had bodies mangled beyond recognition? Again, highly convoluted. I trust I don't need to further explain why.
    Plus, there're DNA tests, reconstructive forensics, etc.

    And despite your poor opinion of the military mind, some years after they're no longer of actuality, military secrets emerge just fine.
    Yes, military training has as one of its purposes to put a leash inside the recruit's head; but, with some exceptions, this doesn't turn the soldier into an automaton.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
  9. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    In this post I will try my hand at reconciling 'Balance of terror' with Ent and the rest of trek.

    The relevant lines from 'Balance of terror':
    1 "SPOCK: this conflict was fought,[...] By our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels[...]Which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other."

    The war was fought with primitive ships only when compared to the 23rd century ones. This is supported by Ent: 'In a mirror, darkly' 1,2, where the technological difference between said periods is shown.
    Indeed, an interstellar starship cannot be considered 'primitive' in another sense: its builders need to have an exact idea of the physical laws and be advanced in a variety of engineering fields.

    There were no ground battles; no seeing your enemy on the battlefield. One limitation necessarily imposed by 'Balance of terror'.

    The romulans used mostly warp capable drone ships - 'no prisoners to capture, no bodies to recover'.
    Not remote controlled as in Ent: 'The Aenar' trilogy; the dramatic potential of this concept was exhausted there.
    Instead, the drone ships are equipped with AIs; a Lovecraftian enemy, accomplishing the missions with no hesitation or regret - they don't have for them useless visual communications installed.
    There may be some conventional romulan ships present during the war - which have as policy self-destruction when incapacitated.

    The romulan strategy - nuclear extermination of the worlds they captured; not occupation or something similar.


    2 About the cloak. 'Balance of terror':
    "KIRK: I don't see anything. I can't understand it.
    SPOCK: Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain, with selective bending of light. But the power cost is enormous. They may have solved that problem."

    Ent establishes heavy suliban use of the cloak; it also establishes that the romulans have cloaking and are not shy in using it.
    By necessity, this means that Kirk, Spock&co were not well read on this issue. Now - the name of the game is excusing Kirk, Spock&co's lack of knowledge on the cloak subject without making them look like incult fools who don't know their history.

    Let's see - Ent also establishes that Daniels gave Archer a technology able to see easily through suliban cloak.
    I can posit that, at the beginning of the war, there was some cloak use by the romulans. The Federation, early in the war, perhaps building on Daniels gift, created a foolproof way of seeing through the romulan cloak, rendering it useless.

    So foolproof, that Federation experts assumed the cloaking technology has no future. As such, in the decades that followed, there was no attempt by the Federation to perfect the cloaking technology; indeed, it remained known only to a small nostalgic fringe, to which, Kirk, Spock&co didn't belong.

    The romulans, on the other hand, did not give up on the cloak. After decades of trying, they created one that hid - somewhat - their ships from starfleet sensors - as per 'Balance of terror'.
    After said episode, the Federation became interested enough to capture a cloak, perhaps even outfit a few of its ships with reverse engineered cloaks.

    Fundamentally, though, based on how thoroughly the cloak was overcome during the War, experts in the Federation remained convinced that this new type of cloak will soon be thoroughly defeated, returning to being as obsolete as it used to be.
    As such, the Federation was not interested in pursuing the technology. At the Treaty of Algeron, the Federation renounced what it saw as a dead-end technology.
    Needless to say, the Federation "experts" who made this determination were wrong. Disastrously so. As such, a century later, the Federation is severely handicapped by the legally binding interdiction in building, perfecting or using cloaks.

    :evil:
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
  10. AverageWriter

    AverageWriter Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    OR just release them in the many, MANY vast nebula that hide the ships from sensors (even MODERN sensors) and have them exit from there. The humans would have assumed they warped in, hid in the nebula and exited to attack. And again, those nebula are EVERYWHERE.

    You think you're brilliant, but you're not interested in discussion. You don't debate, you argue, and I don't want to argue with you.
     
  11. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    AverageWriter

    Quoting out of context in order to be able to come with a counter-argument, I see. I already answered this objection in my previous post addressed to you:
    "-the Federation not 'seeing', even once during the war, how, in its own space, small, primitive ships exit from the mother ships; or not deducing the existence of romulan cloaking technology that hides their ships until they're deep in federation space is both convoluted and makes the Federation people seem inept;"
    etc.
    For details - there're no where nearly enough dense nebulae in Federation space for them to not be carefully monitored after the tactic was used once by the romulans; there are even fewer such nebulae near star systems; for no one to ask ~'how did ships come into those nebulae in the first place?*' is idiotic.

    *BTW, ships at warp are seen on trek sensors just fine.

    PS - In conclusion, you're grasping at straws.
    Large scale cloak use in the war is incompatible with 'Balance of terror', because it transforms either the romulan war period Federation or Kirk, Spock&co into idiotic buffoons.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
  12. AverageWriter

    AverageWriter Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    Bull. Those damned things are EVERYWHERE. Just about every five episodes SOMEONE is bumping right into one.

    In fact- that "tactic" you mention that you say doesn't "work"? About hiding your ships in a place where sensors don't function in order to overcome severe military imbalance?
    Trek even DID that! For multiple seasons the Maquis had their entire survival strategy centered around maintaining themselves in a place where sensors could not locate them so they could quickly exit, strike and then withdraw.

    So once again, canon throws your argument into a wall.

    You're the one grasping at straws, and drawing out an argument that doesn't bode in your favor. You've made this topic quite unpleasant, to say the least.
     
  13. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    AverageWriter

    Let's try to repeat my last post; maybe you'll actually read/understand it now:
    As any astronomy course shows - dense nebulae are VERY RARE. Ones close to planetary systems - even rarer.
    And - nebulae are not exactly opaque to properly calibrated sensors in trek.

    And the most damning part of any large-scale cloak use 'scenario' - including yours; and, of course, of your recent goalpost moving involving nebulae - is that it transforms the romulan war Federation into a gathering of idiots:
    In order for a ship to exit a nebula, it must first enter there. During the 'entering' phase, it can be seen, regardless of whether it 'warps' there or whatever. Unless it has a cloak - a technology already known to the Federation.
    That's a VERY SIMPLE DEDUCTION, AverageWriter. Only idiots would fail to see it; especially if their life depended on it.
     
  14. AverageWriter

    AverageWriter Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    I understood your post perfectly.

    You're just wrong, is all. That's why there are 55 PAGES in MA specifically dedicated to those things you call "very rare". And a WEALTH of Star Trek examples of that very tactic- everything from the Enterprise D hiding in the Paulson Nebula to the Founders hiding their entire homeworld in the Omarion Nebula to the intense cat-and-mouse game that took place right NEXT to the Genesis planet in the Mutara Nebula.

    Yes, I can see how your argument falling to pieces when you think yourself SO SMART might make you angry. But Star Trek's own canon says you're full of it.

    You aren't quite as smart as you think you are.
     
  15. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    AverageWriter

    Did you understand my post? Really?
    Then you must have a poor understanding of astronomy - calling dense nebulae anything other than VERY RARE.
    Plus - all those trek nebulae you named - except, partially, the Mutara nebula - were seen through by trek sensors.

    And, of course, I see you keep quoting out of context to have half a coherent counter-argument. Here's what you keep missing:
    "And the most damning part of any large-scale cloak use 'scenario' - including yours; and, of course, of your recent goalpost moving involving nebulae - is that it transforms the romulan war Federation into a gathering of idiots:
    In order for a ship to exit a nebula, it must first enter there. During the 'entering' phase, it can be seen, regardless of whether it 'warps' there or whatever. Unless it has a cloak - a technology already known to the Federation.
    That's a VERY SIMPLE DEDUCTION, AverageWriter. Only idiots would fail to see it; especially if their life depended on it."

    PS - What's with all your out-of-nowhere remarks about my intelligence? Don't tell me you have an inferiority complex.
     
  16. AverageWriter

    AverageWriter Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    Again, bull. Not even the Borg could see through the Paulson Nebula and was forced to send out completely random shots into it to try to lure the Enterprise out. And the Omarion Nebula was so well hidden that it remained a secret for ten THOUSAND years- the Federation only found it because Odo's "go home" signal told him to go there.

    So you're wrong again, and again and again. Your entire premise is faulty, your arguments are awful, and quite frankly I AM SICK OF TALKING TO YOU.

    I'm through with you- this is my last post in this topic. Please leave me alone from now on.
     
  17. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    AverageWriter

    LOL
    Frankly, reposting my last 2 posts would be entirely appropriate, seeing how they fully negated your so-called couter-argument. (do watch TNG'the best of both worlds' and DS9'The die is cast' to see how calibrated trek sensors saw through those nebulae).

    However, I'll just repost the part that you repeatedly pretended doesn't exist - and that also destroys your 'scenario':
    "And the most damning part of any large-scale cloak use 'scenario' - including yours; and, of course, of your recent goalpost moving involving nebulae - is that it transforms the romulan war Federation into a gathering of idiots:
    In order for a ship to exit a nebula, it must first enter there. During the 'entering' phase, it can be seen, regardless of whether it 'warps' there or whatever. Unless it has a cloak - a technology already known to the Federation.
    That's a VERY SIMPLE DEDUCTION, AverageWriter. Only idiots would fail to see it; especially if their life depended on it."
     
  18. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    And again, those nebula are EVERYWHERE.

    Closest nebula to Earth is about 400 light years and is pretty thin, the first "dense" nebula is 450 light years in another direction.

    :)
     
  19. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    AverageWriter, don't let Edit_XYZ get to you, he's like that with everyone.
    I always assumed the Remans were Vulcanoid. Kind of like, "You thought the Romulans were evil Vulcans? Just wait until you meet their cousins from the dark side of Remus!"
     
  20. HopefulRomantic

    HopefulRomantic Phloxist Moderator Moderator

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    Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

    Edit_XYZ and AverageWriter: cut it out.

    Grow up and play nice. Plenty of other people on this board disagree daily without being disagreeable. It's really not that hard. Make the effort.

    Don't try to pull this crap in another thread, either. Stop it or go somewhere else.

    And NO MORE SHOUTING.