How big were TWOK's "cargo bays" Khan spoke of?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Xerxes1979, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. The Dominion

    The Dominion Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    They look a lot like the cargo structures the Botany Bay had. So I'm pretty sure that's what they probably are.
     
  2. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Hmh? The ribbing, the curvature and the way they sit on the ground comes straight from ST:TMP - while the Botany Bay containers (or fuel tanks?) were angular but smooth things of seemingly much, much greater size. That is, if Khan's original sleeping stations were inside one of those containers, they'd be at least four times the size of the ones he lived in on Ceti Alpha V. And if Khan's sleeping stations were inside the pencil-like hull of the ship instead, then the containers would be absolutely huge in comparison.

    Assuming he ever wanted such a thing.

    For all we know, he just wanted to get away from Earth for a period of time, then effect a triumphant return. His plan all along might have been to sleep in a ship that would send a signal assured to lure in fellow Earth vessels, hopefully after Earth had forgotten about Khan... Or then simply to loop back, and the signal was an error that caused Kirk to locate Khan and force him to switch to Plan B.

    Doesn't jibe well with the idea that Kirk kept Khan's existence secret from basically everybody, or at least from his Starfleet employers.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. DrBashir

    DrBashir Commander

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    One hand of Starfleet may not know what the other one is doing, particularly if Starfleet Intelligence is involved.
     
  4. DrBashir

    DrBashir Commander

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    Terrell recognized them as cargo carriers and you can see "Starfleet" stencilled inside them in some scenes. Khan also says that Kirk left him with only the contents of his cargo bays.

    They're from the Enterprise.
     
  5. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    To nitpick, I can only see "STARFLEET" stenciled on that door slab in the eels-to-ears scene - and the door slab doesn't appear to be part of the containers themselves, but a later addition by Khan.

    Are there other instances of the word appearing on the containers?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  6. Basill

    Basill Captain Captain

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    I don't remember any, but can anyone tell if the stencil for "STARFLEET" is the same as "LOADING CAPACITY" visible on the actual interior of the bay's structure? It's minimal evidence, but could that be a connection? It might lend further Starfleet credence.

    It's seems pretty obvious, even from that tiny image, that the "cargo carriers" were Starfleet. To go to the trouble of duplicating those Motion Picture cargo pods to the degree they did, it seems their intention is apparent. It's especially apparent if they are at a different scale, which would require all new builds rather than reusing or retconning previous set/prop constructs. TWOK had tons of that. I didn't even think that workbee rig with the cargo clamps ever had anything but a filming miniature made of it. So unless something got built that never got filmed in TMP, that was an all new build attempting to mimic a previously visualized design element.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2011
  7. MrJ

    MrJ Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Mike Okuda also said that the red Enlisted personnel jumpsuits worn by NCO's in Star Trek II through VI were Cadet uniforms and the people wearing them were cadets. Despite the fact that Yeomen Burke and Samnoe wore them in ST VI. And the fact that cadets wore the same officer jackets that the officers wore except their undershirts were red, instead of the department colours worn by commissioned officers. So I'd take whatever Okuda says about ST II with a grain of salt.
     
    Also, I always thought that the Cargo containers were from the Enterprise, but the Botany Bay was also sent down to the surface but dismantled for supplies for Khan and his followers to build permanent shelters. It's just we never saw what was left of the Botany Bay, either because it was obscured by the sand and dust, or the Enterprise cargo containers were the only thing to survive the devastation caused by the explosion of Ceti Alpha Six.
     
  8. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    My photo proves otherwise.

    Mike isn't perfect, but I'd rather take what he has to say at face value instead of the opinions of some person on an internet bulletin board who has no past experience in a ST production.
     
    Um, do you have any canon proof whatsoever about this, or is this just your opinion?
     
  9. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    *Update*

    I was at my local public library today and happened to stumble across Nicholas Meyer's book "The View from the Bridge," about his work on the Trek films. In the photo section, lo and behold, was the picture I'd been looking for!

    [​IMG]

    When compared to this small model from TMP, you can clearly see that it's exactly the same, even right down to the cradle where the workbee would have been:

    [​IMG]

    The fourth cargo pod has mostly sunk into the sand, but it's there. You can even see two of the old-style UFP logos on the sides of the containers. So now we have irrefutable proof that they were not in fact from the Botany Bay.
     
  10. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    ...Also proven is that the TMP style gear was in use in the mid-2260s already.

    Unless we speculate that Kirk revisited Khan several years after "Space Seed", and donated him some brand new containers. This would explain away the "fifteen years" references. ;)

    Is that a fifth (and thus presumably also sixth?) container buried at the extreme right, or just the detached grapple of container #4?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  11. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Great find, I've never seen the set in that much detail. It's quite remarkable how closely it replicates the TMP model, down to the cradle at the front, and the pods in formations of twos.

    I like the entrance cut into the side of the pod, and the decayed remains of further pods on the right. I imagine before Ceti Alpha VI "exploded", Khan and his followers probably constructed their own dwellings from wood, stone or other local materials. When the planet was devastated and most life seems to have been obliterated, they were forced to retreat into the three tiny cargo pods they had left.

    No wonder Khan was pissed off.
     
  12. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    We could invent all sorts of details of the lives of the castaways, based on these pictures. What is the big pit in front of the container row, for example? A former pond? A former charcoal pile site? Did something explode there when the supermen fought each other for the last remaining piece of bread?

    And what were all the supermen doing outside when our heroes arrived? Visiting the local well? What else of importance is there on this planet? If dozens of humans and an entire species of ear-burying critters look like mere lichen on a starship's scanners, aren't the odds that something else of note survives as well, hidden by the sandstorm static and whatnot?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  13. Blip

    Blip Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    :lol:
     
  14. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It looks like part of the grapple, but if there's another container attached to it I can't tell.

    Nope. Khan said that Ceti Alpha V exploded six months after they were left there, so it would still have been in TOS season 1 or the beginning of season 2.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2011
  15. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Doesn't invalidate the idea of Kirk visiting him. He just didn't tell Chekov that Khan was now suffering, and probably soon dying, on a true hellhole of a planet. :devil:

    Anyways, the 3100-range stardate of "Space Seed" might well indicate the third year of the five-year mission, thus something like 2268. Add 500 stardates for six months, assume the dates begin when the Desilu season does, and 3700 might well be past the 2269 mark. Fifteen years would get one just past the important ST2 milestone of 2283 on McCoy's bottle, then, without the need to play with rounding up or down...

    I wonder... What technologies did Khan have access to? Apparently nothing he could build an interstellar communications device or a spacecraft out of. But did he have things like groundcars or aircraft, or was he denied even basic water purifiers?

    What is this thing?

    http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0193.jpg

    Or this one?

    http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0149.jpg

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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  17. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Interesting! Thanks for the info. We might just as well speculate it's a biobed readout or a field autodoc "for real" as well... Khan could probably use one, and that's the sort of equipment Kirk would feel compelled to donate.

    The other contraption seems like it was torn out of the carcass of a dead fridge. Quite possibly this is how Khan gets his drinking water. Or some other beverage that benefits from distilling.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  18. MarsWeeps

    MarsWeeps Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    Well, Khan's own words do:

    KHAN to Chekov : This is Ceti Alpha Five. ...Ceti Alpha Six exploded six months after we were left here. The shock shifted the orbit of this planet and everything was laid waste. Admiral Kirk ...never bothered to check on our progress.

    Khan makes it clear that Kirk never came back after dumping him on the planet.
     
  19. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    A digram of the faceplate of that medical device appears in the Phase II book
     
  20. MarsWeeps

    MarsWeeps Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    One thing that bothered me about this movie was the whole "surprise" of finding Khan there.

    When the Reliant was dispatched to the Ceti Alpha system, why wouldn't Chekov think "Oh yeah, that's where we dumped Khan!"

    Also, the great, mighty StarFleet was completely unaware that a planet in this system exploded? You would think somebody at some time would have noticed....at the very least, Reliant should have detected that the system no longer matched known charts, because...well...a planet exploded and shifted orbits of the others!

    Khan remembering Chekov can easily be explained...Chekov appeared off screen as a minor crewman. Khan had access to the ship's records (another brilliant move by Kirk!) so he memorized everyone on board....

    But...the whole "planet-exploding-in-the-system-where-Khan-was-left-and-nobody-noticing" is a bit hard to accept.

    Not to mention, the wonderful scanners on the Reliant that missed Khan and the rest of the survivors...or having them show up as a minor "fluctuation on one dyno-scanner."

    Carolyn Marcus wanted a planet that "was completely dead or the deal's off." Maybe next time send a ship with better scanners?

    Oh...and now that I remember, once Chekov figured out where he was, why not call for an immediate beamout instead of going outside to be captured by Khan? Let me guess, the transporters couldn't penetrate the cargo bay! :eek: