Hirogen vs Dominion?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by bbjegglebells, Jun 2, 2013.

  1. Vulcan Logician

    Vulcan Logician Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I like the way you think, Teacake! If we weren't discussing how to mount the remains of a dead founder, I'd say that idea is worthy of Weyoun.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2013
  2. Infern0

    Infern0 Captain Captain

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    This has a very real world counterpart in my opinion.

    Look at the Iraq war, USA has the numbers and tech, but they can't defeat Al Quaeda, I mean they can take down some leaders but you can't really "beat" a fragmented group like that.

    In some ways you could look at the superior numbers and advantages of the Dominon the same way, but the Hirogen are nomadic, scattered, and the way they operate kind of makes full scale war a non starter. Despite being "hunters" I have no doubt they would be willing to wait in the dark before snaring their "prey".

    Stalemate imo
     
  3. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Of course they are going to wait in the dark. That's what hunting is, only humans who hunt without the need for meat do so with rules about civility and fairness.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2013
  4. Timelord Victorious

    Timelord Victorious Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Who says, the Domion will send in the Jem'Hadar?
    They might send a bunch of Tosk and distract them that way to the point of irrelevance.
     
  5. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Al Quaeda has no chance whatsoever of bringing down USA. It can 'wait in the dark' all it wants.
    USA, on the other hand, has fragmented it, decapitated it, etc.

    One may fail to capture/kill every last member of such dispersed groups, but one can bring them down to the point of near-irrelevancy.

    Stalemate? Not even close.
     
  6. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Hirogen had armor that let them walk around on Stars, right?

    Do the Dominion have anything like that?
     
  7. bbjegglebells

    bbjegglebells Admiral Admiral

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    Dying stars but if they have that kind of armor, it'll be imaginable that they could hide their ship in a star, like a lion waiting in the bush for it's prey.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
  8. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And the Venatic Hunter Ship seems a lot tougher than most Dominion ships.
     
  9. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Commander Red Shirt

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    Dominion world "win" but not defeat them.

    The hirogen are not a empire they are scatterd nomades.

    The hirogen would never be able to defeat the dominion but im guessing the dominion would find it impossibe to hunt them all down.
     
  10. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Commander Red Shirt

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    Who said anything about a time ship?

    The krenim are still a power house with that ships. Look at the huge warships chaseing voyeger in the year of hell.
     
  11. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

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    the hirogen are physically too big to have jeffrey combs play one, therefore they lose.
     
  12. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You mean the ships that only existed as a result of a big time ship altering history?
     
  13. mswood

    mswood Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This thread is funny.

    First without knowing the status of the pilot and how much damage his ship has suffered, using that creature as a reference to gauge the strength of another is utter foolish.

    Second using the strength of Voyager versus the Hirogen as a gauge to judge its strength and then to use it, as a comparison to federation ships and their performance versus the Jem'Hadar is utterly foolish.

    Teh first two initial confrontations with the Dominion were between a galaxy class ship and then later the Defiant. One is considered at the time the most powerful ship the Federation has in its fleet, the other a new designed battleship design specifically for combat, and for combating the Federations biggest threat.

    In initial combat those two ships against (in both cases) 3 small Jem'Hadar fighters are easily outclassed. One getting destroyed in a suicide run (though the Jem'Hadar had already done very significant damage to her). Against the defiant the Jem'Hadar are able to utterly defeat her. Only the Founders plan to capture them to test their resolve, keeps the ship from being destroyed.

    It takes how long before we see the defiant actually destroy a Jem"hadar ship (nearly a full season), where I assume they are constantly trying to strengthen their weapons, their tactical knowledge. It's much later that they manage to work out how to make their shields effective against the dominion based weapons.

    We know they have (even when shut off from the bulk of their forces (the wormhole was closed) teh ability to build ships and create Jem'Hadar at a rate unheard of in the Alpha Quandrant.

    We also know that the combined Federation, Klingon, and Romulan forces would have taken utterly huge loses to stop even the smaller isolated part of the Dominion that had come through the to the alpha quadrant (not its full empire). It was teh the surprise attack by Cardassian forces that allowed the Federation, Klingon, Romulan forces to even get to Cardassia Prime without massive loses in ships. And even so that vast armada that awaited them there, would have taken out the majority of the alpha Quadrants defensive forces.

    Now with the Hirogen we have very little real practical knowledge of their strengths and weaknesses. We know that Voyage one small Federation isolated ship was unable to defeat a single ship through shear power.

    But we also know that Voyager wouldn't be able to defeat in original combat three Small Jem"Hadar fighters. As Voyager as less weapons and less armor then the Defiant, and I don't think anyone actually thinks that Voyager's class of ship is supposed to be more powerful then a Galaxy class starship.

    We know nothing about the size of their forces. All we know is that they are nomadic, and are willing to travel vast distances for a single hunt. The fact that they had ships in one part of the Delta Quadrant and ships significantly further away in other parts of the Delta Quadrant doesn't mean they control a vast stretch of that area. Just means they have at some time moved through various parts of the quadrant.

    To use that information to suggest that they have control over a large body of forces are even able to cover that large of a section of a Quadrant in a short period of time is foolish. For example the areas between early Hunter appearances and later in Voyagers run, don't imply that those ships made travelled that distance in the same period of time, they could have moved to those locations years to generations ago.

    For example we have evidence of Federation forces in not only the area around the border of the alpha and BEta quadrants, but also evidence of Federation peoples in the Gamma Quadrant and through the Delta Quadrant. Does that mean the Federation controls or has influence over those vast areas? Nope not in the slightest.

    There is also no evidence that they had control over the communications network. They state only that they claimed it, but we see no direct evidence that it means anything more then that one outpost that was destroyed.
     
  14. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Commander Red Shirt

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  15. bbjegglebells

    bbjegglebells Admiral Admiral

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    Lets say a wormhole opened on the edge of Hirogen space to the edge of Dominion space for how they meet.

    Don't forget to account for the Borg upgrades.

    We do know they are stretched out over 30,000 light years. It'll be tough for anyone to conquer a nomadic race spread that far out, even the Dominion but all a Hirogen has to do is destroy one founder homeworld. I'll rate them as the ultimate star trek trackers, I believe they could find them if they really wanted to.