HEROES 3x08 "Villains" Discuss and Grade

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Dream, Nov 10, 2008.

?

Grade the episode

  1. Excellent

    32.9%
  2. Above average

    34.2%
  3. Average

    23.7%
  4. Below average

    6.6%
  5. Poor

    2.6%
  1. Servo

    Servo Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: HEROES 3x08 "Villains" - missed a point about Sylar

    My vote goes with either Ando, or Noah.

    I'm inclined to believe that Arthur isn't taking Hiro's ability, but somehow influencing/brainwashing Hiro into working for him. This could be one explanation as to why Ando is trying to take Hiro down in the future. Maybe what Psion said is correct; that Hiro's powers can't be taken, so Arthur has to resort to brainwashing him instead. That could also explain why Arthur's plan seems to have prevailed in the future that Hiro visited - the man would be pretty much unstoppable with someone who can manipulate time and space at his disposal, on top of the range of powers and resources he already has.
     
  2. Kryton

    Kryton Admiral Admiral

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    I believe it's entirely possible that Hiro is STILL inside his dream and Arthur has joined him there along with the dream-image of having decapitated African-Isaac.

    "I understand you've been dreaming about me." It's not that super-Arthur COULDN'T transport or speedster himself there...I just get the feeling either it's a dream image projected by Arthur OR it's Maury Parkman sliding into Hiro's dream through an existing image...he'd already been dreaming of Arthur and Angela.
     
  3. Servo

    Servo Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That is entirely possible. Although Maury is dead, so it would have to be Arthur himself doing the projecting.

    Also, after making that last post, I realised something; if Arthur did steal all of Peter's accumulated powers, shouldn't he already have the ability to manipulate time and space anyway? In which case, he'd be able to bend timelines to his will on his own, so the only advantage to Arthur either brainwashing or killing Hiro, is to remove the only person who can stand up to him on that level - someone who can travel through time and space and put right what...once...went...wrong... :vulcan:
     
  4. A Clockwork Lim

    A Clockwork Lim Lieutenant Commander

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    There's no reason for Arthur to take Hiro's powers -- he already has them via Peter. Another pawn is far more useful to him.
     
  5. Kryton

    Kryton Admiral Admiral

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    I contend that if Matt could fake HIS death using his psi-powers (as he did in that same episode), Maury...with around 30-plus more years of experience with those same abilities...could and SHOULD well have faked his own demise at Arthur's hands (note no "soul-sucking" effect when Arthur seems to snap Maury's neck). Maury knew it was coming. With his talents, how could he NOT?

    I still think Maury is going to be the Villain who becomes the Hero and saves the day (or the season climax anyway). :)
     
  6. Morpheus 02

    Morpheus 02 Commodore Commodore

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    Does Arthur know all of Peter's powers? If he's seen them in action, then he certainly knows what he can use (such as the electricity). But if he doesn't know, can he instinctively use them?
     
  7. Kryton

    Kryton Admiral Admiral

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    You make a valid point, considering that Future Syler hinted that Peter HAD his ability all along, he just needed to learn how to access it.
     
  8. A Clockwork Lim

    A Clockwork Lim Lieutenant Commander

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    He showed up in the middle of Africa dressed in a suit with not a sign of sweat to be found. Somehow I doubt he hiked there as opposed to, say, teleporting.
     
  9. HappyDayRiot

    HappyDayRiot Commodore Commodore

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    Above Average.

    Not what was I expecting. Nice to see vol. 1 again as some people have said, but some of the hole-filling seemed... superfluous. Nice to how Arthur died and the backstory of Meredith, and the Sylar/Elle/HRG storyline was good too. And Eric Roberts stole the show - he was one of my favourites back in the day so brilliant to see him back for this one.

    But why was Elle so out of character compared to s2? How can we possibly reconcile the two? That doesn't sit right with me at all - it smacks of retconning vol. 2 out of existence, especially since Monica, Bob, Maya and everyone else introduced in that volume has gone now (although rumour mill says Maya may be back...).

    The ending was crap. We've learnt nothing. Not one thing in that flashback relates to anything in vol. 3 at all, it's just window-dressing. Hopefully Arthur (who I love) kills Hiro, if only for entertainingly wasting my time. Usutu dead? Who cares.

    In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say this was the worst of the volume so far, because NOTHING happened. What's Pinehearst? How was it set up? What's it's ultimate aim? How does the Company fit in? What has episode one's future vision got to do with anything? What's the ultimate aim with the powers formula?

    Oh, it doesn't matter. Retconning, however inoffensively, is far more important. Sigh. Thank god House is on tomorrow. As far as I enjoy Heroes, sometimes it really does rub me the wrong way.
     
  10. Kryton

    Kryton Admiral Admiral

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    Um, if (as I conjectured) he is in Hiro's dream, he could wear any goddamn thing he wants.
     
  11. TheBrew

    TheBrew Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe Sylar going all crazy is what made Elle so loose in the head. She saved his life. She brought him to put away his hunger and then brought in a lamb to tempt him.

    It was interesting, even if it didn't mean much. I do like the "hunger" aspect of Sylar being introduced. But I am a sucker for characters who must battle their darker side.
     
  12. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

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    Regarding Elle being out of character, I wonder if she got more used to her job after Sylar? I mean it's been a year since her first encounter with Grey and how she was in season 2. Just a thought.
     
  13. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    Average.

    Not much happened. It was weaker then the first and second season's flashback episodes. I hope next week will be better.:(
     
  14. Meredith

    Meredith Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Aurthur already has Hiro's powers, he got them from peter already. I am guessing teleportation, he is scanning Hiro's mind right now.
     
  15. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    I'd still be okay with Arthur stealing Hiro's powers, even if he already had them from Peter.

    And then we should kill off Arthur by the end of the season, thereby eliminating all the time-travelers from the story.
     
  16. TheBrew

    TheBrew Vice Admiral Admiral

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    What would be interesting if it was changed so that Hiro could only effect the flow of time in that he could only go forward, not backward. He could stop time, but not make it go backwards.
     
  17. label

    label Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If he could only affect the flow of time to go forward, what use would that be? He'd never be able to return to the "present" to correct events..........:confused:

    He could visit the future but be helpless to return and stop it from happening. That'd be almost like a modern day Cassandra....

    Updated to correct bad quoting.........
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2008
  18. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    ^Hey now, I didn't say that...MISQUOTE!!!

    Anyway, I'd be okay with his powers restricted to stopping/freezing time from now on. Or maybe Ando really will kill him at some point...
     
  19. Dorian Thompson

    Dorian Thompson Admiral Admiral

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    I'd be okay with Hiro roasting on a spit. I'm seriously sick of his childish bull shit.
     
  20. Temis the Vorta

    Temis the Vorta Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Excellent! Just the kind the stuff I watch Heroes for.

    More than anything this was Angela's origin story. Seeing the reason she emerged as the Black Widow was exhilirating and gives all new depth to her. Also makes me really doubt Arthur's story about Gabriel. Angela either saved Gabriel's life and hid him away, or was protecting him from the evil fate Arthur had planned for him.

    Gabriel's story was pretty enlightening, too. After reviewing the S1 DVDs not long ago, I was struck by the disconnect between the Sylar who scrawled FORGIVE ME a hundred times on the walls of his secret room and the remorseless Sylar who emerged not very long afterwards.

    I figured it was just one of those discrepencies that crop up in complex serialized shows and it would never be reconciled. It was a small detail, not something that really required and answer.

    But now we know the connecting bridge was Elle and Noah's manipulations. Wow. And they remembered to have Sylar actually say "forgive me" early in the episode to tell us which mental state he was starting with, and foreshadowing where he would be going. Now that's attention to detail that I can appreciate. :bolian:
    There's no retconning here. The writers are bending over backwards to explain the FORGIVE ME room, providing an explanation for a small detail I never even expected them to bother returning to. There has never been any statement that Sylar was in control of his behavior. On the contrary, there were continual hints from the first that he was not in control and that he was behaving like an addict.

    I saw all the hints from the start, which is why I know for certain they were there for everyone to see. People liked the notion of Sylar being simplistically evil so they didn't catch the hints, but that's not the fault of the writers or producers and certainly doesn't constitute a "retcon." You just didn't want to see it. Well too bad because the writers aren't responsible for the audience's wishful thinking.

    And this isn't sugarcoating, either. If Sylar has the ability to resist the hunger, then he is responsible for his behavior. If he were simply insane, and evil in a simplistic manner, then he'd be off the hook. The writers are putting him on the hook, not pardoning him at all.

    And if he were simplistically evil, why would he ever change his behavior? The only way for him to be redeemed is for there to be another part to him to return to. A simplistic lunatic only has a straight-jacket in his future. The writers are pursuing this story in the only way that makes any sense, unless they wanted to just kill Sylar around about now, because to keep him a simplistic villain this long would become tedious. Rather than kill off a character, they're thinking of a more creative option. Good for them. They kill enough characters as it is, and if they killed Sylar, everyone would be bitching about how unimaginative they are. :rommie:
    I am 100% certain that will be revealed in an upcoming episode. Do you want them to tell the whole story in one hour and then have nothing left over? We got some big massive hints in this episode about the likelihood of Arthur's story about Angela being correct, namely, it probably isn't one little bit. Why not relish this slow reveal way of storytelling? The biggest problem so far this season has been that the story is far too rushed. I am very happy to see them finally slowing down to a reasonable pace and letting the characters re-take the focus of the story, versus a lot of frantic, insane rushing around.
    Precisely. Sylar was a killer and knew it before Elle and Noah entered the picture. He was trying to control himself and Elle just pushed him over the edge. Why does this mean somehow Elle and Noah are responsible for his behavior at all? If they had never shown up, maybe he'd gone off the rails on his own anyway.

    And that was Elle, not Daphne, who provided lunch. But Elle was also the reason Sylar tried to get rid of the hit list temporarily. Because having any sort of human connection makes him feel "special" and therefore stronger to resist the hunger. This also synchs up with his behavior towards Mohinder when he was pretending to be Zane - he was still killing people but started to act like having a "friend" might change his attitude - and totally synchs with his behavior after he found his Petrelli family, which is like what he experienced with Elle and then Mohinder, except in far more complete a fashion because they represent the "important, special" family he'd always longed for - which he told Chandra about in "Six Months Ago" - and because Angela accepts him for what he is, which no one else has ever done.

    This all synchs up to a very impressive extent, and far more neatly than in the vast majority of TV shows I watch. Most don't even attempt anything near this level of connectedness and complexity. The main problem here is that the producers know the details of their own show far better than the audience remembers.

    I'll give them that as a freebie since we only saw Elle for half a season as a less-than-major character. We saw one side of her and now they're fleshing out the rest. A good, solid, complicated character should take at least one full season for us to get a handle on. Beyond that, any details they want to add must have been foreshadowed earlier, like they've done very diligently with Sylar, regardless of whether people have noticed or been blocking out details they don't want to see.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2008