Hercules/Xena (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by kirk55555, Jul 8, 2014.

  1. OmahaStar

    OmahaStar Disrespectful of his betters Admiral

    Joined:
    May 15, 2002
    Location:
    OmahaStar
    Oh, if you're having this much trouble with a little bit of "other religions" mixed in there, I can't wait to see your reaction to the Santa Claus episode.
     
  2. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Location:
    In many different universes, simultaneously.
    We are in complete agreement about the Abraham/Isaac episode. I found that one stupid.

    As for Eve and the other religious stuff, the only way I kept myself watching was to remind myself, "It's just another mythology they're exploring," and ignore all the ravings of how 'wonderful' it was from my friends who were also watching.

    There are some good episodes in the last two seasons, especially those with Ares and Aphrodite. But there are also some awful ones (I realize we may disagree on which of them are awful ;)).
     
  3. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Location:
    Washington State, USA
    Well, that sounds weird, but I really like watching versions of A Christmas Carol, so I'm sure I'll end up watching A Solstice Carol. I don't have a problem with them taking stuff from books and stuff like that.

    Honestly, what bothered me the most about Altared States was that it was irritating, in combination with adapting the story they did and trying to blatantly bring the christian god into Xena, a show in a universe with a bunch of interesting gods and goddesses already. I actually really liked the ending of The Royal Couple of Thieves, where we find out that the weapon Xena is trying to get back is the Arc of the Covenant. So, i'm not against various modern religious stuff in the show, its more about how its done.
     
  4. JanewayRulz!

    JanewayRulz! Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2009
    Location:
    North America
    But Isaac and Abraham aren't a Christian story, their's is an Old Testament / Jewish story and consistent with the people you met in "Royal Couple of Thieves".

    The Mediterranean Sea was a cross "roads" of different cultures and religions, and this show will depict many of them through its 6 year run. Are you assuming that "just" because you've seen of Gods of Olympus in this show, that they are the Alpha and Omega of all the deities in the universe?

    I think the very point of "Altered States" is to remind "we the audience" that assuming "Olympus Rules" all will lead to our downfall.

    As for watching a show about women who kick butts while having adventures... tell me you didn't like that "fish fight" from the teaser? :bolian:

    Heck I love the ep just for the "drunk" Gabrielle. :guffaw:

    By the way, did you recognize the very young Dr. Leonard McCoy from the rebooted Star Trek franchise?

    As for "The Prodigal", you missed out on meeting an interesting character that will be the center of attention in a season 2 ep.
     
  5. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Location:
    Washington State, USA
    Oh, I despised that stupid scene. :klingon: I was livid as soon as I realized they were swimming naked, and I knew something annoying was going to happen. I've heard about Xena's "subtext", and I just know its going to get more annoying as the show goes on

    As for abraham/Issac, that one did confuse me a bit. I knew it was old testament, but some places say Christians use the whole old testament, just like jewish people do, and some say christianity just cherry picked it. Regardless, it was very distracting, and the effect was still the same regardless of whether its a strictly jewish story or not.

    Yep. He did as good as could be expected, but his character was horrible. :techman:

    Well, if they don't want me to miss something, they shouldn't give Gabrielle an episode and remove Xena from the majority of it. No one introduced in a Gabrielle only episode is someone I care about, anyway.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2014
  6. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Location:
    Washington State, USA
    Ties that Bind (Xena) - Ares pretends to be Xena's father in an attempt to win her back to his side. She almost does, but Gabrielle saves her. I think Ares brainwashes her at one point, because she reverts to evil Xena way too quickly to just be angry at her "Dad" getting hurt/killed. She was trying to get an army to murder innocent people :cardie: The whole episode was executed poorly, and overall it wasn't very good.
     
  7. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Location:
    Washington State, USA
    The Greater Good (Xena) - Xena gets poisoned, Gabrielle has to pretend to be her and does a horrible job at it. Even salmoneus couldn't save this from being an extremely mediocre and forgettable episode.

    Callisto (Xena) - This episode was infuriating. From beginning to end, it was one huge cliché. It starts with Xena being framed for murdering a village, and gets worse from there. During the episode, we meet a comedy relief character so bad he makes me want to apologize for being mean to early season 1 Gabrielle. At least she had some point, even at her worse. Joxer did literally nothing but take up space. We also get a talk about the power of love and friendship (presumably because the writer had been binge-watching shows like Captain Planet and care Bears at the time).

    Callisto herself was horrible, and a complete missed opportunity. The idea for the character was great, a person Xena had wronged turning into something resembling evil Xena and wanting revenge. The problem? The character needs some redeeming factor to have sympathy, but Callisto has none. Her family was killed by Xena, so she...goes around murdering women and children? It totally ruins the ability to feel sympathy for the character, so she just becomes another warlord of the week, with a slim connection to Xena. Callisto can't even be a threatening psycho villain, because the actress is about as threatening as your average kitten. She looks like she'd get her butt handed to her by Salmoneus or even that idiot Joxer. Lucy Lawless does such a great job of being threatening and badass on a regular basis that it just makes Callisto's actress's performance even more pathetic. Honestly, I don't think anyone could have made the part work, but hiring someone who looks/acts like they'd be playing the generic spoiled rich brat in a normal TV show didn't help. Gabrielle would be a more threatening villain.

    So, overall, this episode took a great idea for a character, gave it to a completely miscast actress, and then put her into an episode that was probably written by a brain damaged jellyfish that had just discovered a copy of "Overused Cliches for Dummies". The worst thing about this is that I know Callisto comes back in the other Xena seasons I have (Seasons 2 and 3). Also, according to the xena wiki Joxer appears in 42 episodes of Xena :eek: They have out Jar Jar'd George Lucas, who at least stopped using Jar Jar in the movies after it became clear the character was despised. But, this made more sense when I looked Joxer's actor up on Wikipedia and iMDB. Apparently, he got 42 episodes because of nepotism. You know, I like Sam Raimi, but if he needed to shove his brother down everyone's throats using the show he was producing at the time, he could have at least have had the courtesy of having the writers come up with a good character for his brother to play:klingon: So, now I can't even skip Joxer episodes without basically just not watching the show. Well, at least Callisto's Season 2/3 episodes will be easier to skip. She's in a lot less, although still way too many for such a crappy character. I may have to watch more of Xena's Jar jar, but I'll be damned if I'm watching any more episodes focusing on the love child of Paris Hilton and a s%^&*y version of The Joker.
     
  8. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Location:
    In many different universes, simultaneously.
    I will say these two things:

    1. Joxer improves between now and the end of the series.

    2. If you skip Callisto episodes, you will miss ones that are critical to the greater overall story arcs.
     
  9. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Location:
    Washington State, USA
    Well, I'd hope he improves if he gets to be in 42 episodes, he probably can't get any worse.

    As for Callisto, I'm willing to make the sacrifice. I can read the Xena wiki to get decent summaries of episodes I skip, so I won't get lost if a Callisto episode happens to have something halfway important happen in it.
     
  10. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    Location:
    I said out, dammit!
    For the loves of gods, keep watching the Callisto episodes, even the ones that crossover to/from Hercules. Callisto becomes, IMHO, the greatest, most complex villain in syndicated fantasy TV show history (I know, not a broad catagory, but still...). Hudson Leick's performance, as the character grows and changes, is one of the great delights of the whole series - she has such a lot of FUN being evil! And Callisto's character arc has got to hold some kind of record for its scope.

    It's kind of odd though that she was created as a foil for Xena, but a couple of her greatest character development moments are in her Herc episodes. I had to buy 2 seasons of Herc just to get those eps for my home-made Callisto boxed set.
     
  11. DWF

    DWF Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 19, 2001
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Joxer's alot of fun over the years especially in Xena's Groundhog Day ep. And Callisto goes though some surprising changes herself over the years.
     
  12. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Location:
    Washington State, USA
    I might give her second episode a chance. If she can become even the least bit threatening, and be more rational than her really bad female Joker thing she did in episode 1, I might change my mind about her episodes. But, she's going to have to change as a character completely in the next episode, and the performance is going to have to be a lot better. If its the same "crazy paris hilton" type character as her first episode, then I'll definitely not watch an episode with her in it again.

    She was a complete waste of a good idea in her first appearance, so she's basically going to have to be completely different in her next episode for me to bother to waste time watching her. I hated her in Callisto, and she has a very big uphill battle to make me waste my time. I don't like poorly done crazy characters, and wasting the idea of one of Xena's victims becoming an enemy on a generic, poorly written crazy woman is probably one of the biggest mistakes of season 1. So, if the next episode can completely turn the character around, I might bother with more episodes with her. But, I really don't see that happening.
     
  13. DWF

    DWF Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 19, 2001
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Callisto isn't going to be completely different in her next outing, but changes do happen and it does take some time. Personally though I loved the ladder fight in her first ep.
     
  14. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    Location:
    I said out, dammit!
    Trust me, while she remains a crazy character, the LAST thing she is is a poorly done crazy character!
     
  15. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Location:
    Washington State, USA
    Well, I'm not wasting my time on the same character from the first episode. I'll give her next episode a try (probably only about 10 minutes unless it really grabs me) and then leave the spoiled brat of the Xena world alone. I really despised her in the first episode, so if she doesn't have an immediate change then she's the same poorly written, poorly acted, poorly conceived person that should never have been more than a one shot character. Unless the next episode involves her getting brutally murdered as an excuse as to why she's the same character, I have no desire to see a repeat of her first episode, or to see that character ever again.

    Then again, even if she was killed she'd probably just come back because the Xena writers, just based on season one, seem to hate their audience. They have a great main character, and a tolerable sidekick at the end, but they still turn out crap like Callisto and apparently allow Sam Raimi to turn the show into his own personal family employment center. Next thing you know, Xena will be revealed to actually be Mary from the Bible, Gabrielle will go back and time to become Xena's grandmother and Callisto will kill Zeus and take his place :klingon:
     
  16. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Location:
    In many different universes, simultaneously.
    I can safely say that none of these three things happen.
     
  17. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Location:
    Washington State, USA
    Well, I should point out that, after browsing the xena wiki, I accidentally found out about Eve, which is why I made the crack about Xena being revealed as another woman famous for having a baby without having sex. I don't feel bad about the spoiler because I don't intend to go past Season 4 of Xena (and that's assuming I get that far), so Season 5 and 6 spoilers don't bug me. I'm not super spoilered for those seasons, or the show in general after season 1, but I know Xena has a kid that she didn't get by having sex, so one of those things kind of happens, from a certain point of view ;)

    Back to episodes I've watched,

    Death Mask (Xena) - Thiswas mediocre. It was interesting to see Xena's brother, but the confrontation with the warlord who attacked Xena's village was lame and didn't have a satisfying conclusion.

    Is There a Doctor in the House (Xena) - This was ok, but nothing special. There is a war, Xena helps in a hospital, the general on one of the sides of the war learns a lesson and the war ends. They tease Gabrielle dying, but she was obviously going to survive, so there was no tension.

    So, overall Xena - Warrior Princess Season 1 was a mixed bag. The main character is usually great, and by the end of the season Gabrielle was downright tolerable. But, the writing is really a mixed bag, and when its bad it's really bad. Its not anywhere near as good as Hercules's first season, but it wasn't bad, it just didn't live up to the potential it has. My favorite episode was probably either Prometheus or The Royal Couple of Thieves, with an honorable mention to The Black Wolf.My most hated episode is probably The Reckoning, with dishonorable mentions toCallisto, Altared States and Dreamworker.

    Also, in case anyone is wondering, I do still have probably 3/4ths of Hercules Season 2 to watch. I'm just saving it up, because I figure I'll need a break from Xena if season 2 starts off as mediocre as season 1 ended.
     
  18. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Location:
    In many different universes, simultaneously.
    Please consider this: Lucy Lawless was pregnant in RL, so they had to write the pregnancy into the series. While I don't know why they wrote it the way they did, I suspect at least part of the reason was so they wouldn't have to come up with a story and accompanying male character to explain who the father was, and when the baby was conceived.
     
  19. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Location:
    Washington State, USA
    Well, I can understand that. But, I don't think they needed to make the baby a recurring character. Just say she got drunk and slept with Ares, and then gives the baby away to hid it from him.

    It doesn't really matter, though. I'll never see the episode, so as far as I'm concerned I'll never have to deal if Eve, or anything after Season 4 (or possibly earlier if the show just becomes too horrible to watch in the next two seasons, I'm hoping it actually gets better but it could go either way at this point).
     
  20. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Location:
    In many different universes, simultaneously.
    All of that would be profoundly out of character for Xena, and Ares is a god - there's nowhere to hide a baby from him!

    Do you feel this way about babies in general (as characters) or just on Xena?