Guy in Gown

Discussion in 'The Next Generation' started by Charles Tucker, Apr 9, 2010.

  1. Charles Tucker

    Charles Tucker Ensign Newbie

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Hello,
    I am rather new to Star Trek but I have to say I am quite an avid fan. I have recently started watching The Next Generation and I have noticed in the first season there is a man who walks around in a Starfleet gown. I was curious as to why and what purpose this serves. I have included a picture. This is a screenshot from episode 11001001.

    [​IMG]

    Thank you very much for any light you can shine on the subject. Speculations are completely welcome.

    Trip :vulcan:
     
  2. Withers

    Withers Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Location:
    On a boat
    From Memory Alpha...

    http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Starfleet_uniform_(2350s-2360s)






    Hope that clears it up for you. For the record I'm glad they got rid of it. The idea of a woman "working" in that uniform seemed unrealistic. The idea of a man working in it was just outright silly.



    -Withers-​
     
  3. Charles Tucker

    Charles Tucker Ensign Newbie

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Thank you a lot. That totally clears things up. I tried to figure it out for myself on memory alpha; however, I could not find anything under the term which I was using. As you know is "gown"


    Trip :vulcan:
     
  4. SpyOne

    SpyOne Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Here's the thing: back on TOS, the female characters wore skirts, often quite short skirts. It was the late 1960s, after all.
    By the late 1970s, Gene was getting a bit of flack from fans about that, and how it appeared sexist. So when TNG appeared, .... we saw that male officers sometimes wore skirts too. So it wasn't "sexist", it was just an option that the women on-screen in TOS overwhelmingly chose.
    Then they disappeared, probably because they looked a bit silly and, as my mother once said, "It is impossible to do any kind of meaningful work in a skirt" (although I know some Scotsmen who would disagree).
     
  5. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Location:
    New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
    In TOS, the controversial mini dress worn by the female crew was essentially co-designed by Grace Lee Whitney, who'd complained to William Ware Theiss that she hated having to wear Sally Kellerman's hand-me-down black slacks in pre-publicity photos and wanted to express 1960s (and 23rd century) femininity by wearing a spacesuit that showed off her legs. (Similar to how womens' libbers made political statements by wearing mini-skirts.) In fact, the Starfleet uniform dress is not a mini "skirt" at all, since one leg is actually wrapped by fabric. A divided skirt, similar to culottes.

    For TNG, the in-joke was that, this time, the so-called "skant" (short pants that appear to be a skirt) would be worn by both sexes. Several males are seen wearing skants in "Encounter at Farpoint".
     
  6. The Trekster

    The Trekster Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2010
    Location:
    Chicago
  7. sbk1234

    sbk1234 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2006
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Thanks for the info, Therin. I guess I owe Grace Lee Whitney a bit of gratitude.
     
  8. Pemmer Harge

    Pemmer Harge Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2009
    Location:
    Between the candle and the star
    Funny thing is, people always make fun of the fact that it's a dress, but that's not the real problem with it. After all, why shouldn't men wear dresses? No, the real problem is that it's a horrible dress!
     
  9. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Dude, it's a future 300 years from today. Look at how silly people dressed 300 years ago , and imagine how silly we'd look to them.
     
  10. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Yes, but people from 300 years in the future weren't watching the show. People from 1987 were.
     
  11. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    And?
     
  12. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    And perhaps an enlightened human race from 300 years in the future might stumble upon archaic DVDs of the show and not bat an eyelash about men in dresses, but the viewers in 1987 thought they were silly. And they were who mattered.
     
  13. Withers

    Withers Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Location:
    On a boat
    It has nothing to do with who was watching when. The notion of performing duties in a skirt is ridiculous. Ask anybody who has to do any form of manual labor (like realigning sensors, crawling in a Jeffries Tube, or performing calisthenics) in the real world and they'll tell you that a skirt is hardly the easiest thing to work in. It's like working in high heels or in combat boots if you're a sever at a restaurant. It's just impractical and doesn't take any advanced form of knowledge to figure that out.
    -Withers-​
     
  14. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Who says this crewman has to crawl through tubes?


    And I think you didn't get what I was saying. People from the 18th century looking at our fashion would find it utterly ridiculous. So it would just be realistic if Trek characters wore ridiculous stuff. Above all it is supposed to be a Science Fiction show.
     
  15. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Location:
    New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
    The whole point of Roddenberry's "spray and wear" futuristic clothing (demonstrated in TMP when the Ilia Probe comes aboard) was that 23rd century workers could very quickly get changed into more appropriate clothing for the job they had to do. In ST:TMP and ST II, the crew very quickly add field jackets when leaving the ship.

    Now, the practicalities of filming ST II - ST VI and TNG were that Starfleet clothes were often seen being put away onto hangers or into drawers, but that wasn't the concept behind the creation of the skant. Clothing (at the design stage) assumed that switching clothes could be done extremely quickly, as fast as beaming down to a planet. As I said in an earlier post, the skant design was more like current-day culottes - a divided skirt, that wouldn't "ride up". Even in TOS, the mini dress wasn't actually a dress: one thigh was wrapped by fabric.

    In "Encounter at Farpoint", we see Tasha in pants during the action scenes and in a skant once the adventure is over.

    The idea that some planets being visited might be incredibly hot would make a casual, short version of the uniform essential. Why not something that looks like a skirt, no matter a person's gender?

    Don't current navy uniforms still include a "shorts and long socks" version for hot climates?
     
  16. The Trekster

    The Trekster Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2010
    Location:
    Chicago
    @withers: oh man, how much did it bother you seeing seven of nine climbing jeffries tube ladders in high heels. I could understand the producers putting women on the show in heels, but she was the former borg!! No other women, or men (that I noticed), ever wore high heels on the show. ugh.

    @therin: It seems like they took the 'quick change' theory into account still after they ditched the mini-dresses. Remember when Microcosm when Janeway gets back to the ship, goes to engineering, strips down, and loads up on guns? It took her all of 30 seconds (and was hot :P).

    We also saw picard in his leather-topped 'command coat' uniform thing starting in season 5, I think? Might that be just one of the many ways one could wear their uniform, or do you think it was special captain's privileges? Maybe he was just getting old and everything was too cold for him. Maybe he shoulda just moved to Florida...

    (oh and sorry about the VOY references, is that kosher?)
     
  17. Keith1701

    Keith1701 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Location:
    Warner Robins Georgia
    I think he was some officer in the background.:p
     
  18. Withers

    Withers Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Location:
    On a boat
    Right now, today, there is no respectable military (or military-esque) organization in the world that would put a man or a woman in a skirt and ask him or her to perform any sort of manual labor.

    Have you seen an episode of Star Trek before? Any of them? They're forever crawling through tubes, up ladders, and over fallen debris. They go on away missions to hostile planets, they recalibrate sensor arrays, program torpedoes, move stuff around on floating dollies, and that's all to say nothing of the fact that they're pretty routinely in combat with stuff exploding sending shrapnel in all directions.

    I'm not saying that the idea was silly based on what it looked like. I'm saying it was silly based on the notion of working in a skirt. It was silly in 1980. It was silly in 1990. It is silly in 2010. The notion of working in a skirt is silly. Not because of how it looks (though it does look pretty stupid) but because of the practical limitations and the unnecessary exposure to risk working in such a uniform would have and cause.

    Well, they weren't wearing it on a desert planet, were they? They were wearing it around the Enterprise (which I'm assuming had climate control.) And as for the "what if?" Here's your answer;

    http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/File:Starfleet_desert_robe.jpg

    My argument isn't about fashion. My argument is about practicality and how, if it seems stupid now it would seem stupid in the future to ask anyone to work (under the conditions Starfleet Officers were under) in a skirt with no coverings for their legs.

    Yes, very much- it was clear the actress was uncomfortable so the idea that the character would perform the tasks she did wearing that...thing, with those shoes... well, I rolled my eyes pretty hard.


    -Withers-​
     
  19. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2001
    Location:
    Mr. Adventure
    Most of the women's boots have heels on them. Not like 7 of 9 but not like the men's boots either.


    I thought the skants looked silly but also that was the brilliance of them in a way. They were challenging to our preconceptions and an interesting conceit but it was too much I guess.
     
  20. SpyOne

    SpyOne Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    An aside: I have worked as a server in a restaurant, and "combat boots" (US Military issue, the ones that every soldier buys boots better than with his first paycheck) were the most comfortable shoes I ever wore in that job.
    In fact, I went from being a sneaker person to wearing those boots at work all the time.

    Agree about the high-heels, though. Not practical footwear for someone who's going to spend hours on their feet.
    How about sneakers in a kitchen: sounds like a good idea, until you realize that rubber soles + grease = slipperier than almost any alternative.
     

Share This Page