Grant Morrison thinks Batman is gay!

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by stj, Apr 29, 2012.

  1. Methos

    Methos Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2012
    Location:
    Hiding under Gaila's bed...
    Allow me... it happened in the Catwoman comic, which is a lot more adult than the rest of the Batman publications lol

    [​IMG]

    M
     
  2. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
    What he actually said was

    which is a bit more nuanced than "Batman is a homosexual!!!!"

    The class aspects of his statement are more interesting to me.
     
  3. Ayelbourne

    Ayelbourne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2005
    I don't know.. there was much hanging around with Jezebel Jet.
    And a few years before that, that checkmate chick.
     
  4. Agenda

    Agenda Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    [​IMG]




    And then look closely at the bottom right.
     
  5. the G-man

    the G-man Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Location:
    to your immediate right
    So basically Grant Morrison doesn't like Batman. Another reason he is a bad Batman writer.
     
  6. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
    How you get "Grant Morrison doesn't like Batman" from that is beyond me.
     
  7. the G-man

    the G-man Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Location:
    to your immediate right
    You really think "He’s a rich man who beats up poor people. It’s quite a bizarre mission to go out at night dressed as a bat and punch the hell out of junkies. And then he goes home and lives in this mansion" is a statement of admiration for the character?
     
  8. Hound of UIster

    Hound of UIster Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 26, 2002
    No he just pointing out the fundamental contradiction of the character.

    In Morrison's run on Batman, Batman mostly beats up rich people anyways.
     
  9. the G-man

    the G-man Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Location:
    to your immediate right
    Except that I have yet to see a single Batman comic in my 40+ years of reading the character's exploits where he's beaten up a junkie. Unless you count Bane.

    Yes, he's beaten up muggers, and some of those muggers might be junkies, but he does it to rescue someone, not simply because someone is a drug user. Same thing with "poor people." And when you consider that both Bruce and Batman do a lot for honest poor people the claim becomes even more specious.

    So for Morrison to falsely claim that Batman is a character who beats up junkies and poor people is a sign he doesn't like-or understand-the character.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2012
  10. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
    Do you take every word so literally?

    Anyway if we want to be so anal and literal - he beats up a junkie in a story with Jason Todd, he asks the guy if he's a pusher after kicking in his door and then punches him so hard that he knocks him out (the guy offers no resistance or threat to Batman). It's part of a story-line where Pushers are selling drugs at Todd's school.
     
  11. the G-man

    the G-man Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Location:
    to your immediate right
    Morrison's a professional writer. If he uses a word or constructs a sentence I assume he knows what it meant and that he meant what he said.

    So, in other words, the only "junkie" he ever beat up was a drug dealer, selling to kids? If so, he wasn't beaten up for being a junkie or being poor. He was, as is typical of Batman, beating up a criminal for being a criminal.
     
  12. StarTrek1701

    StarTrek1701 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2008
    Both of them have their cowls on whilst fucking raw.

    Kinky. ;)
     
  13. the G-man

    the G-man Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Location:
    to your immediate right
    Actually, if you look at that pic, Batman's hips are about a foot away from his waist. She schtupped him in two!
     
  14. lvsxy808

    lvsxy808 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Location:
    London
    It seems to me that it's clear he's not trying to claim that the character of Batman or of Bruce Wayne is of homosexual orientation. He's saying that the construction of the character has much in common with what otherwise might be seen as stereotypical (and rather outdated) traits of the homosexual man.

    His life is built on a dual identity - one face for the daytime corporate business world, and another for the nighttime where he dresses up in weird outfits and prowls the streets looking for other unsavoury characters. He has an older mentor who he relies on to keep his secret. He has a younger protege who came from a similar difficult family background, and who he teaches in the ways of the night-people.

    That's the kind of stuff Morrison is talking about, to my mind. Not saying that the character is an actual homosexual.

    It's like Raj from the Big Bang Theory. People say he's gay because he likes chick-flicks and pot pourri. Those are incidental things. Yes, he may be playing the "gay role" (again, defined in hugely and rather offensively stereotypical terms) but he is doing so while not being an actual homosexual.

    That's the way comics were written back in the day, the way all sci-fi and fantasy works. You cloak the issue you actually want to address in tights and a cape, so that people are distracted by the outer covering while the internal issues creep in unnoticed. The X-Men was a totally gay metaphor story decades before any actual homosexual character appeared in its pages.

    .
     
  15. the G-man

    the G-man Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Location:
    to your immediate right
    I seriously doubt that Bob Kane or Bill Finger were thinking of this as a homosexual metaphor. Really, it was just a case of trying to do a modern day "Zorro."

    Most of the allegedly homosexual subtext in the old Batman books was obviously a combination of changing word meanings (for example, "queer" and "gay" meaning "strange" and "happy" back then) and the fact that it was written for little boys who wouldn't be caught dead reading about kissing "yucky girls" and to whom wrestling and sleepovers was still asexual.

    I'd also point out that, if secret identities and kid sidekicks are automatically [metaphorically] gay then pretty much every comic book superhero ever written pre-Fantastic Four, including Superman (and Jimmy Olsen), is just as [metaphorically] gay. So, unless Morrison thinks they're all [metaphorically] gay, it is just another example of him not understanding Batman and taking the cheapest and easiest, Schumacheresque, analysis of the character available as his hook.

    If anything, golden age and silver age Batman is about arrested development and extended adolescence: a grown man who suffered a trauma as a child who spends his life playing with "toys" from the batcave and having adventures with another kid, while doing his best to eschew his "work" (Wayne foundation) and family responsibilities and having an older parental figure still taking care of him.
     
  16. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Location:
    Arizona, USA
    I really don't think that someone criticizing something like this means that they don't like or understand the character, sometimes it is the people who are closest to the character that have the most right to criticize them. I haven't read any of his stuff yet, but I was under the impression that Morrison was one of the most popular Batman writer of the best couple decades. Obviously some people must think he understands and likes Batman. If he hated him or didn't understand him, I wouldn't think DC would be bringing him back to finish off his Batman stuff.
     
  17. the G-man

    the G-man Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Location:
    to your immediate right
    Morrison sells but I think we all know that just because something's popular doesn't make it good.

    I would also point out that the number of issues of Morrison's "hot" bat-titles sold per month would have probably gotten the book cancelled for low sales in decades past.
     
  18. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
    Which is a straw-man because you could say that of pretty much any title sold in 2012 - time moves on.
     
  19. the G-man

    the G-man Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Location:
    to your immediate right
    At the same time, one could wonder if the incessant need since the 80s to turn every superhero into some sort of "metaphor" for adults hasn't helped create the downtown. In which case, it isn't a 'straw man' argument.

    More to the point, however, as I said before, even if we concede Morrison's Batman sells well does that mean it is, per se, well done or better than some other version of Batman? Does it mean, per se, that a popular version of Batman means the writers understand Batman?

    After all, to this day, the 1966 TV version of "Batman" is still quite possibly the most commercially successful version of the character in any media: Millions of first run viewers of all ages, a movie based on the show, unprecedented product tie ins, a huge cultural impact that continues to this day (see the newspaper articles that still reference "Biff" and "Zap" in articles about comic books for just one example), successful syndication and theme song that is instantly recognizable forty six years later (and has been covered by artists as diverse as the Who, the Jam, Link Wray, Iggy Pop and the Royal Philharmonic).

    That success notwithstanding, is anyone here going to argue that Bill Dozier and Lorenzo Semple Jr. "understood" Batman better than Bob Kane, Bill Finger, Denny O'Neil, Steve Englehart and/or Paul Dini?
     
  20. sidious618

    sidious618 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Location:
    sidious618
    Believe it or not it's possible to have different interpretations of characters than you do and still be a great writer.
     

Share This Page