George and Gracie

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Bry_Sinclair, Apr 28, 2013.

  1. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So after all the work Kirk & Co did in TVH to bring humpbacks into the future to save Earth, how long did they last after that?

    I mean only one breeding pair wouldn't be enough to start a whole species from without massive inbreeding and all the problems what causes. Or did the Federation decide to send more ships back in time to restore the species to avoid another probe attack?
     
  2. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Between cloning and advanced gene manipulation tech, I would think they could figure something out.
     
  3. Third Nacelle

    Third Nacelle Captain Captain

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    It's possible that before humpbacks went extinct, embryos were frozen and they just need a female to carry them. I like to think that they repopulated the species somehow.
     
  4. Vanyel

    Vanyel The Imperious Leader Premium Member

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    Maybe a Jurassic Park kind of thing. Find Blue Whale DNA from bones in museums and clone away.
     
  5. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Here in the Puget Sound area, we have endangered orcas (southern resident pods J, K and L), it has been observed that orcas avoid mating with siblings or offspring. With cousins is possible, but they usually mate outside the extended family pod.

    Orcas and humpbacks aren't the same of course, but whales are intelligent beings and the expectation that they will simply reproduce with their own children, and between brothers and sisters, is unreasonable.

    Left to their own devices, the offspring of George and Gracie would live out their lives and die without producing children.

    I would hope that forcing the small family to have offspring with each other (artificial insemination or normal sex) would be against future law.

    If they had frozen genetic material/the means to clone why wouldn't the people of Earth future have already repopulated the oceans?

    Sadly, within approximately a century of George of Gracie coming to the future, the oceans will be empty of whales again.


    :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2013
  6. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Dumb Federation ethics. "Who are we...blah blah blah. We haven't had whales for 200 years, we can't know the impact..blah blah blah"
     
  7. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Spock was able to mindmeld with Gracie. Given the existence of the universal translator, if the humpback whales were to prosper and multiple in Earth's oceans, by the 24th century would a humpback whale be able to become Earth's representative to the Federation Council?

    Obviously not homo sapiens, however they are indigenous to this planet. You should not have to be humanoid to be on the Council, should you?

    :)
     
  8. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If that whale somehow manages to run and campaign for the Council.... why not? Don't see it happening though.
     
  9. EliyahuQeoni

    EliyahuQeoni Commodore Commodore

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    Its been ages since I read it, but I seem to recall Vonda McIntyre's TVH novelization addressed this issue. They did have the genetic material/means to clones whales. However, since no living humpback existed there would be no adults to raise the young clones. George & Gracie would become foster-parents to the new population of whales, raising them and teaching them.

    I'm not sure that is a 100% solid explanation, but it made sense when I read it as a kid.
     
  10. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I guess if you accept the premise of whales being sentient creatures, that if you clone one, that would be akin to placing a human kid to grow up in the wild. Sure he can function and survive, but you wouldn't be able to communicate with him when he's 25.
     
  11. The Mirrorball Man

    The Mirrorball Man Vice Admiral Admiral

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    When humpback whales are your only line of defense against a completely mysterious super-race hell bent on destroying your civilization, you better believe that George and Gracie are going to get cloned time and time again.
     
  12. xvicente

    xvicente Captain Captain

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    A big problem with that is where to find whale-sized equivalents of uteruses to gestate the clones.

    I think Kirk probably never really intended to "repopulate the species". He needed the whales only tell the probe to go f:razz: itself.
     
  13. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    Nah, the message was "Nothing to see here, move along."
     
  14. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    "Don't Panic"
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Not a problem. As seen in "A Man Alone", they can do it from start to finish in simple vats, at least in the 24th century.

    We don't even need that much rationalization here. Suffice to assume they have the material, but they just plain don't have any motivation to make use of it - not until it turns out that Earth needs whales in the next fifteen minutes or everybody will die, which isn't exactly the best motivation for starting cloning.

    Why return whales to the oceans? Just to prove that mankind has cleaned up its act (and said oceans)? The whales themselves won't care. The oceans won't care. Heck, all sorts of krill and shrimp will be elated with the whales gone. AFAWK, they haven't restored the buffalo, either, and those never really went totally extinct.

    Besides, Earth fears new Khans so intensely that it has banned many sorts of helpful gene therapies. Hobby cloning is probably an offense punishable by six months in therapy.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. Lee Enfield

    Lee Enfield Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    There is somewhere the idea that dolphins and whales help with communication problems along with starfleet officers in the 24th century. The Whitfire and the Sternbach Blueprints of the Enterprise-D suggest this as well.
     
  17. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ One of Diane Duane's novel had a "dolphin" (non-terrestrial?) whose people were unusually good navigators.

    :)
     
  18. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Whether dolphins or the fictional Takaya's whales mentioned in the TNG Tech Manual in the navigation context ever went extinct is not established. All we know is that humpback whales died out.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. ToddKent

    ToddKent Captain Captain

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    23rd century genetics has to be way more advanced than 21st century so Timo is right. Once they got a hold of G & G's DNA they probably could have easily cloned a whole herd of them in a lab if they wanted to.

    Now, whether or not they would choose to do that is certainly up for debate. I agree that in the post-Khan world they would certainly be hesitant about playing God with genes but at the same time, they might assume if the 2 humpbacks died out again that the Probe would come right back and they'd be back in the same situation.
     
  20. Lee Enfield

    Lee Enfield Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I agree. But then, your shrimp argument is invalid.
    Another thing: if we assume humpback whales are the only ones who can talk to deadly-alien-probe, the motivation for starfleet to have more of the whales seems obvious. ...already writing a novel : The Return of the Deadly Alien Probe.;)