Generations: Worst Possible Crossover Idea?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Mr Light, Jan 13, 2014.

  1. Mr Light

    Mr Light Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 1999
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I just watched Generations again for the first time in several years.

    And, as always, this strikes me as the worst possible way to do a TOS / TNG crossover.

    Kirk "dies" and goes into limbo and Picard finds him in limbo and takes him out to fight a dude on a bridge and he immediately gets killed? Are you kidding me?!

    Only Picard ever gets to meet him, and he dies five minutes after they meet? Kirk never gets to see the Ent-D?

    Why not do the easy and obvious and satisfying thing? One ship travels in time and meets the other? And they have to team up against some big bad?

    I just read that Kelley couldn't be in it for health reasons, and Nimoy refused to be in it because his part was a joke. But Nimoy's role was basically what Scotty's was in the film as is. But surely you could just take whoever you could for the TOS Enterprise crew.

    And to kill Kirk off in such a punk way... *shakes head*

    They should have just had the Ent-D travel back in time to meet the Ent-A. And, y'know, NOT kill Kirk.

    I haven't read Shatner's The Return novel in some time, but I recall it was quite entertaining and basically the multi-series crossover that the movie should have been.

    Hell, you could have done a variation of First Contact, with the Borg traveling back in time to kill Kirk or something and the Ent-D following them through.

    And if you absolutely HAVE to kill Kirk off, at least let him do it at the helm of his ship on a kamikaze run saving the day...
     
  2. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Location:
    The Enterprise's Restroom
    More sensible to have had the Enterprise D itself find Kirk floating around in space somewhere?

    The reality is that the whole Nexus scenario is a dead end plot-wise. Once you conceive of this mystical mumbo-jumbo explanation for crossing the generations, then basically it railroads you into writing the script in a specific way. Especially when the edict is to give the lion's share of plot to the TNG crew. Kirk's entire presence in the final section of the movie really comes across as something of an after thought.
     
  3. SpocksLeftEar

    SpocksLeftEar Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2013
    The problem with the Nexus is that is allows a person to exit whereever and whenever it wants. Why go to this stupid planet five minutes before Soran launches the missile?
    Why not go back in time long before anything can happen?
    (This of course is a problem that pops up in lots of movies, but why not avoid it once in a while?)
     
  4. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    In the light of the recent skiing accident of former Formula One World Champion Michael Schumacher it would seem that in real life Death knocks at your door in a situation where you least expect it. In this regard the movie felt more real than usual.

    Well, he did something along those lines earlier aboard the Enterprise-B (though I think Scotty would have been the one better qualified for the job).

    Theoretically, having Kirk disable mechanical components of Soran's rocket and being killed in the process would have been a better way to go for him, but it would have looked somewhat derivative considering his earlier repair job in the movie.

    Bob
     
  5. Mr Light

    Mr Light Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 1999
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I'm saying the entire fundamental plotline is a bad idea, though. Time to throw the baby out with the bathwater :lol:
     
  6. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Location:
    "Who are you?"
    Whether GEN is the worst possible crossover idea depends upon whether you think it's a good idea to take a giant dump on TOS. :shrug:

    I'd rather have had Kirk step in front of a blaster beam to save Picard.

    Also, Kirk's last words leaned on the fourth wall too much. We know Shatner had fun being Kirk, but more likely than blabbering about having fun, Kirk would have thanked Picard for getting him out of the Nexus so he could make a difference.
     
  7. Mr Light

    Mr Light Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 1999
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    his last words were "oh my!" :p
     
  8. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Location:
    "Who are you?"
    His last two words were, "Oh my!"

    His last five words were, "It was fun. Oh my!"

    Yes?
     
  9. Mr Light

    Mr Light Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 1999
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    yeah I was just being a nit ;)

    OMG! I just realized! Kirk's final words were a George Takei quote!!!
     
  10. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Location:
    CommishSleer
    Thank Picard, thank Picard... for taking Kirk away from
    Paradise, from the lost love he was constantly talking about in TOS and the TOS movies, from the life in a cabin making eggs and riding horses that Shatner (I mean Kirk) really wanted.
    Kirk didn't really want to make a difference, or otherwise that would have been his greatest desire, his experience in the Nexus for 80 years. Nope he wanted to live in a cabin with whatshername. If not the Nexus was just a lie and didn't provide someone with their greatest desires.;):)
     
  11. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Location:
    "Who are you?"
    Uh-huh.
     
  12. Khan 2.0

    Khan 2.0 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Location:
    earth...but when?...spock?
    kirks nexus wouldve involved carol Marcus at home (couldve had the actress reprise the role or couldve just been mentioned like whatshername. Plus David shouldve been mentioned in some capacity) Then going to the empty Enterprise bridge NCC 1701 refit, perhaps reenacting the countdown from Trek III only this time he aborts...(which wouldve allowed for Picard to be in a original series movie environment like one would expect to see if Picard is in kirks nexus!)

    Then Picard convinces kirk to go back with him to the rock planet to defeat the villain..then they both appear on sha ka ree in front of blue light god and kirk goes 'yeah maybe not this one'...and Picard is like 'well actually where we're supposed to be going is almost as bad..'
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2014
  13. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Location:
    CommishSleer
    I'm sorry.
    I could rant on for pages about GEN. Its like an addiction that I've been trying to stop.
    I'm stopping now. Honestly. Unless someone says how good GEN is. OK I better stop reading this thread. :lol:

    Back onto topic, yes I agree that GEN was a bad crossover idea. Unless you really hate TOS and maybe Picard and all he stands for.
     
  14. BoredShipCapt'n

    BoredShipCapt'n Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2012
    Location:
    a sonic shower
    A blaster beam? ;)

    [​IMG]


    Worst Shatner death scene ever, in this film. Terribly unsatisfying. He didn't get to overact. Just contrast with his death scenes on The Six Million Dollar Man and The Fugitive.
     
  15. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    Well, I'd say it's a great example of continuity. Here's the decisive GEN scene:

    PICARD: All right, I know exactly where I want to go. The mountaintop on Veridian Three, just before Soran destroyed the star. I have to stop it. But I need help. Now, if you were to come back with me. Together, we c...
    GUINAN: I can't leave here. I'm there already, remember? But I bet I know someone who can.

    Whether it's actually Guinan or Picard's subconscious is not relevant, but I'd say one of the few people with enough integrity to be willing to leave the Nexus was Kirk all along, considering his commendable attitude in ST V:

    KIRK: To be brainwashed by this con man?
    McCOY: I was wrong. This 'con man' took away my pain!
    KIRK: Dammit, Bones, you're a doctor. You know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with the wave of a magic wand. They're things we carry with us, the things that make us who we are. ...If we lose them, we lose ourselves. I don't want my pain taken away. I need my pain.


    Apparently, the great James Tiberius Kirk was among the few who'd never swap reality for a fantasy or illusion, so it made quite some sense that Guinan (or Picard's subconscious) was thinking of him.

    Bob
     
  16. USS Triumphant

    USS Triumphant Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    Go ahead, caller. I'm listening...
    Anyone else think that Kirk's death scene was the result of someone in the creative team misunderstanding what it meant when they were told that Kirk should die on a bridge?
     
  17. Mr Light

    Mr Light Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 1999
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    The other thing that pissed me off was Kirk was in love with some woman I'd never heard of... what about Carol Marcus? Or hell what about the girl from "City on the Edge of Forever"?

    Do the novels or something go into detail about this other lady?
     
  18. USS Triumphant

    USS Triumphant Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    Go ahead, caller. I'm listening...
  19. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    :guffaw: Looks like a serious possibility!


    Bob
     
  20. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Location:
    CommishSleer
    If the writers had want to do it properly why not pick Miramanee or Edith Keeler as the woman Kirk consider giving up his career for. And they could have asked either of the actual actresses who played these characters to return. I believe they still look pretty good for their age.
    In my fangirl eyes I can see New York in perhaps the 60s where Edith Keeler and Kirk are working together to help the homeless. They have a couple of grown-up kids (one is David) and Spock and McCoy visit occasionally through the City On the Edge of Forever to keep in touch (I'm such a sap I know). I think this would be more Kirk's fantasy. And there are probably a thousand other more satisfactory fantasies than that shown in GEN.

    To me Kirk's fantasy in GEN shows that Berman doesn't either know TOS or care about TOS. Which is understandable as TNG is his priority. But here I am a Star Trek fan and 19 years later I'm still a raging. :lol: Why not do it right, why not respect the character even if it doesn't belong in Berman Star Trek.