Generations was...

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Johnny, May 17, 2013.

  1. EliyahuQeoni

    EliyahuQeoni Commodore Commodore

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    Speaking as someone who is primarily a TOS fan and a huge fan of Cpt Kirk, I had no problem with them portraying Kirk's death. It was the execution (pun intended) that left me wanting.
     
  2. Kevman7987

    Kevman7987 Captain Captain

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    The only real dissatisfaction I hold with Generations is the lame way Kirk died.

    In my opinion it would have been more Kirk-like had he been killed by sacrificing himself during hand-to-hand combat with Soren. The two of them going off of a cliff Sherlock Holmes vs. Moriarity style or something.

    Or something more awesome that ends with Kirk's survival; all of the sudden after a fist-fight, Soren is unsteady and Kirk yanks him over to himself (GET OVER HERE) and then (FINISH HIM) Kirk incinerates him with fire breath (FATALITY).

    I think we can all agree the MORTAL KOMBAT ending is a lot more satisfying.:evil:
     
  3. Peach Wookiee

    Peach Wookiee Cuddly Mod of Doom Moderator

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    Hmmm... "I HAVE HAD... ENOUGH OF... YOU!" WHAM!
    Flawless victory.
     
  4. Keeper

    Keeper Commodore Commodore

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    Okay, clearly they can and did kill him but I'd rather they hadn't.

    The death of Kirk was canonized onscreen so that is it, he is dead - period. That fact makes him unique among all TOS players, (congratulations :rolleyes: ) We, thankfully, cannot say that about anyone else.

    Even Scotty and McCoy, despite the death of the actors playing them are still opened ended characters because those characters never got killed and they [probably, hopefully] never will. They have, in a sense, achieved immortality.

    I just wish the same could be said for Captain Kirk.
     
  5. GalaxyX

    GalaxyX Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I tend to agree with this.

    I think in a way, we like our fictional characters to have an air of immortality, so that there is always a chance they can show up later on.

    On Screen deaths of beloved characters are simply copouts from the writers to elicit emotions only for the sake of emotions.

    I personally hate tragic endings. I don't like watching movies that end tragic and depressing.

    Generations ended horribly tragic. So did Nemesis.

    Data finding his cat is a lame attempt at some levity after the completely unnecessary death of Kirk.

    I remember I was about 16 when I saw the movie the first time. I saw it with my dad (huge TOS and Captain Kirk fan) and my brother (who was 12 at the time).

    When Kirk died, my brother started crying, and my dad looked at me and said "What the fuck was that?"

    I felt like I just got punched in the stomach, and I'm not even a huge Kirk fan!

    So yeah, Rick Berman, Brannon Braga, Ron Moore, Paramount, and whoever else was involved in such cow shit of a story:

    FUCK YOU! :klingon: Fucking assholes!

    But at least you lame pieces of shit finally got booted after you put the 2nd nail in the coffin of TNG with that lame Data death (Which WAS my favorite character! assholes!! :klingon:)

    I feel bad for William Shatner. He wanted a role in the new Trek films and JJ Abrams so far hasn't given him a chance.

    I would.
     
  6. Stoo

    Stoo Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, everyone dies. I think by trying to avoid that, by wishing for Kirk and co to be eternal, you're actually arguing for the exact opposite of Generations' message.
     
  7. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Even Generations itself doesn't know what Generations' message actually is. Especially in regards to what it is that Kirk wants most from life/death/retirement. That one seems to change from scene to scene. Knowing Kirk it sure as hell ain't making eggs in a log cabin.
     
  8. Andymator

    Andymator Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Oh come on, "Generations" conveys it's message just fine. To paraphrase;

    Everything comes to an end, don't dwell on it and enjoy the hand you're dealt while you've got it.

    It's not some obscure hidden meaning, it's blatantly spelled out for the less astute of us at the end of the movie. Even 12 year old me could decipher that when I first saw it.

    Within the context of the movie nobody cares about Kirk. He's not the protagonist, and Star Trek fans can't seem to get past that. The movie is about Picard, Kirk was only present to act as the wise old sage who can help Picard learn his lesson of the day.

    There are real criticisms to be leveled at Generations, but that's not one of them.
     
  9. Infern0

    Infern0 Captain Captain

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    I always liked Generations, it does have it's problems though.

    1. The Uniforms keep changing

    2. The Enterprise D was destroyed due to monumental incompetence

    3. Kirks death was ill-fitting

    4. Picard not going back to 10 forward from the nexus made no sense

    Those are the main problems, but otherwise I enjoyed it. Nowhere near as unforgivable as Insurrection imo.
     
  10. Andymator

    Andymator Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    You see, those are all of the things I keep hearing about from Star Trek fans, and I just don't see it.

    The problems with "Generations" as I see it are:

    1) Data's story is poorly structured and doesn't dovetail with Picard's elegantly. It does provide some comic relief, but maybe takes it a bit too far at inappropriate times in the story structure.

    - This one's a challenge to fix, because it really just takes some good writing. You've got to find a way to both re-structure Data's story so it doesn't just fall off the map at the end of act two, and have it tie into Picard's story at the same time.

    2) The story loses a whole lot of momentum and deflates once Picard enters the nexus. It was epic up until that point, and then it just lost it.

    - Another difficult thing to fix. Maybe adding more suspense and having the viewer wonder what was actually happening. Play up the the emotional content of Having his brother and nephew alive again, and him having to struggle to give it up. It basically just needs a re-working.

    3) Three old men (Picard, Shatner, and McDowell) having a physical showdown for the climax borders on silly.

    - I can buy Picard in a physical confrontation. You need Kirk there as a demand of the studio. The only way out of this is recasting McDowell, Which would suck because his over the top theatrics really made this movie fun. You would need to find a younger more physical actor who ALSO has the ability to ham it up and chew the scenery. That's a difficult task. I could also see this not being a problem for some people, it's pretty subjective.

    With all that said Generations was still a good fun movie, and considering the box that the team had to work in it turned out great.
     
  11. Stoo

    Stoo Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I suppose the Nexus presents a pacing issue? We're late in the film, closing on the climax but throwing Picard into a comfortable christmas dinner and Kirk ino a nice morning doing chores. I'd agree playing up the heart-wrenching side of Picard's decision to leave, might have helped.

    Have to admit I didn't like the Data story. It's goofy, he shortcuts his path to learning how to be human, and I don't really see how it fits with the wider themes of the movie.
     
  12. MickJo1701

    MickJo1701 Commander Red Shirt

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    Always preferred the Sovereign to the Galaxy Class, its a sleeker and sharper design (I've always seen it as a cross between the Constitution Refit and Intrepid Class) and after nearly 20 years it still holds up quite well. The Enterprise D on the other hand, while still being a fantastic design in its own right, was a product of its time.
     
  13. umichigan

    umichigan Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    At first I thought, I have some opinions on Generations so why not weigh in. But after giving the posts a careful read I decided that this conversation evokes an image we'd all rather wasn't so true.
    I can see William Shatner on SNL telling everyone to "get out of your parent's basement once in awhile!" ...or words to that effect.
    Remember, it is better to remain silent and be suspected an idiot, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. I leave with the letters that have allowed civilization to persist, IMHO.
     
  14. Andymator

    Andymator Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Yeah, pretty much. It is much easier said than done though. Sometimes you just don't see these things until you're watching it in context on the screen, so you can't really be too hard on Braga and Moore.

    I think the reason you feel that way is because it was resolved way too easily. Picard and Data having the stellar cartography talk should have been the beginning of data overcoming this new challenge, not the end.

    I honestly feel that the levity and humor it provided to the action adventure story was good in theory, even if it wasn't my cup of tea. There were definitely people laughing in the movie theatre when it played, so it works better for some.


    Well, I'd say don't feel so self-conscious about it, we're just having some fun talking about a 20 year movie! I know I won't think any less of you if you're critique is that people change their clothes during the movie or that Data's emotion chip is bigger than the last time we saw it... even if I don't agree with it.
     
  15. umichigan

    umichigan Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Of course you're right. But it's like dealing with all those lousy-driver-jerks on the road at rush hour. If they would just get out of my way my life could be perfect! ;)
     
  16. RandyS

    RandyS Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So, what's wrong with that? I assume you see that as a bad thing?
     
  17. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    How is it holding up well? We haven't seen the ship for 11 years.:confused:

    That's an amusing statement. The Excelsior, Reliant, and the Klingon BoP were all designs from the mid-1980's, and while being products of their time, are still the most prominently seen Trek ships even today.
     
  18. Gojira

    Gojira Commodore Commodore

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    I agree with everything you have said. Generations has some plot holes but otherwise I still enjoy it.

    I am also a musician and I have been surprised how many people are into movie sound tracks. I am not into them too much, yet there are times when they grab my attention (Jurassic Park) but I have always thought that the sound track should blend into a movie and enhance it but not stand out that much.