Garak's Thoughts on the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Photon, Mar 2, 2013.

  1. Photon

    Photon Commodore Commodore

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    After watching DS9, I don't blv I've caught anything that Garak said about the occupation. Speculate then did he think it was right or was he indifferent? He never seemed that adversarial toward Bajorans
     
  2. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Garak probably didn't care one way or the other.

    IIRC, the occupation was not an Obsidian Order operation. So Garak wouldn't have much reason to get involved. The occupation was strictly the purview of Central Command.
     
  3. Captain Nebula

    Captain Nebula Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I'll bet it's touched on at least once in Andrew J. Robinson's DS9 novel 'A Stitch in Time'.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2013
  4. Iliana Malek

    Iliana Malek Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    You do have to wonder, though, if Garak participated in some way in the events on Bajor. He often made up stories that involved activity on Bajor, such as the stories about 'Elim' that he told Bashir in "The Wire", or when the record keeper in the episode "Cardassians" said she was in the underground, and he said, "Then perhaps we have met!", but that could just have been Garak trying to play mind games with whoever he was addressing. After all, you could never really trust what he was saying.

    But, I agree that he was probably rather indifferent to the events on Bajor. He never seemed particularly troubled by it, and I don't recall him ever really bringing it up.
     
  5. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'd imagine in public he'd declare it pointless but shrug it off, while in private seeing it as an atrocity.
     
  6. indolover

    indolover Fleet Captain

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    There was one episode in which he went to a conference on Bajor and attempted to justify the occupation by giving a dispassionate view. As to his own personal opinion, well most Cardassians we saw still despised Bajorans, even after the occupation ended. My own reasoning is that Cardassians viewed Bajorans just as the Nazis viewed the Jews. Of course this was the point of the occupation story, but in the five years between the Federation coming and the Dominion taking DS9 I bet Dukat would have been eagerly awaiting being "overseer" of Bajor again.
     
  7. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That was hilarious but I would say that it was typical Garak hiding the fact he really does care. 9 times out of 10, Garak has the same morality and agenda as our heroes.

    I can see him getting caught up in the zeitgeist and propaganda of the time but looking back on it, I can't see Garak viewing it as a great achievement.
     
  8. Iliana Malek

    Iliana Malek Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I don't see any evidence of that in the show. I honestly don't think he thought about it very much, except for resenting the fact that the Bajorans on the station tended to give him dirty looks. Given how much Garak clearly enjoyed his work, I don't think he would have given a second thought to the events on Bajor being an atrocity or not. They were just business.
     
  9. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Based on that one episode where Garak was called to a conference on Bajor, I think he was in favor of Cardassian's governance over Bajor, but he was strongly against the way the Bajorans were treated.

    That's why he wanted to discuss the Occupation from a 'Historical perspective'. He believes, that although the murder of millions of Bajorans was an atrocity, that Bajor may have benefited in the long run from the Occupation because of the technological and cultural reforms that resulted from it. So it's a lot more like the attitude of the Ancient Romans than the Nazis.
     
  10. Iliana Malek

    Iliana Malek Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I could get on board with that. Though, I still don't see anything in Garak's behavior that indicated that he had any opinion on how the Bajorans were treated, one way or another. But I could definitely see him viewing the Occupaion as ultimately being a benefit for the Bajorans, since Garak showed us repeatedly how much he loved Cardassia. He likely would have thought that any Cardassian influence was a ultimately a good thing.
     
  11. Gul Re'jal

    Gul Re'jal Commodore Commodore

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    I am not so sure I'd expect Garak to classify it as an atrocity. He was a cruel man himself, who believed getting his results was worth any price (he even tortured Odo and who knows how many other people, or committed murder(s)), so I wouldn't assume that anyone's suffering made any impression on him. Especially if that suffering was non-Cardassian for the good of Cardassia.
     
  12. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Garak was always obsessively patriotic to Cardassia, but he also showed empathy for the defenseless and a view that the way to make Cardassia strong was not to kill without remorse. Also I believe some of his stories he told, while not necessarily true, were very truthy. Permutations of the truth, rather than the truth itself.
     
  13. Retu

    Retu Commander Red Shirt

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    Best lies are often those which have a dose of truth mixed in:
    Bashir: What I want to know is, out of all the stories you told me which ones were true and which ones weren't?
    Garak: My dear doctor...they're all true.
    Bashir: Even the lies?
    Garak: Especially the lies.


     
  14. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    IIRC, Garak only tortured Odo because he was ordered to do so, and even then, it hurt him to do it.

    Some of the more blatant atrocities committed during the Occupation (such as Gul Darhe'el's wholesale slaughter of Bajorans at the Gallitep labor camp) would have been impossible for Garak to go along with. He's not a savage.
     
  15. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    He was not a savage, but the love of his life - his purpose for being - his religion - his God - was Cardassia. Therefore, I agree with those who've said he probably didn't think much about Bajor except how it affected Cardassia.

    However, he might very possibly have thought a lot of the things that occurred during the Occupation were stupid and wasteful, because when he was cruel and ruthless, it was for what he genuinely believed was a sufficient reason, and the pointless sadism done by those who just got a kick out of inflicting pain and humiliation would have offended his sense of ethics. He would have considered that conduct unbecoming a Cardassian. But other than that, I really don't think he thought much about it.
     
  16. Gul Re'jal

    Gul Re'jal Commodore Commodore

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    I'm not sure I'm buying Garak's crocodile tears.

    Garak was ready to commit genocide and kill all changelings on the planet. I doubt he'd care much about Bajorans and their lives, if killing them all would serve his purpose. If the occupation was good for Cardassia, then the Bajorans were just collateral damage. Maybe, as JustKate pointed out, pointless if without a reason, but Garak was hardly a sympathetic and nice character. He's liked by many fans and whitewashed due to that, but if you look carefully, he's not so nice and innocent.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2013
  17. Iliana Malek

    Iliana Malek Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    ^Agreed. It's funny, but Andrew Robinson actually mentioned that he didn't want people to like Garak, Garak wasn't supposed to be one of the "good guys", he wanted him to be seen as the quiet villain. He worked for the heroes, sure, but it was always for his own ends, because it benefited him, and not for some larger altruistic reason.

    Re'jal has a good point, he was perfectly alright with killing off the entire changeling race, I don't think genocide of any species would have affected his night's sleep one bit.
     
  18. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^While I agree he was not what I would consider a good person, I don't agree that he was self-serving. What he really cared about was Cardassia. This doesn't excuse his brutalities, at least not in my opinion, but they were not done to benefit "himself."
     
  19. indolover

    indolover Fleet Captain

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    I think Garak was basically a good person, who could sometimes do bad things. That said, Dukat was essentially the exact opposite.
     
  20. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    For my money, I think that Garak in later seasons was probably more influenced by Federation values, and would probably have come to view the Occupation as immoral. I think that he had begun to understand how oppressive the Cardassian system he had served truly was -- and that the oppressive nature of that system was what led to its inevitable demise at the hands of the Dominion.