Galileo 7 – Was it Boma, Spock or is it me?

Discussion in 'Star Trek - Original Series' started by Jeffty5, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. Nacluv

    Nacluv Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I love McCoy but sometimes I find him to be so self-righteous that it corrodes his capacity of seeing things from more perspectives than his own, sometimes making him very unilateral.


    I guess I am the only one, but I've had even more such experiences with Spock actually.
     
  2. Admiral_Sisko

    Admiral_Sisko Lieutenant Commander

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    As have I. I think that people tend to remember McCoy's statements because they're often extremely dramatic, whereas Spock's are not, but that distinction doesn't diminish the value of Spock's statements, nor does it undermine the honesty behind them. His interactions with Kirk in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and "The City on the Edge of Forever" are excellent examples of his ability to cut through irrelevancies and focus only on the truth of a particular situation.
     
  3. Lt. Zanne

    Lt. Zanne Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    well I like that about Spock too~ his focus and his intellect and the way he can think thru things logically without the interference of emotions (usually). And I like McCoy because he is not really a military man or a very disciplined man.They are both great characters. I enjoy McCoy's irreverence. Bread and Circuses is one of my favorite episodes where you see them arguing/debating, just not being able to get along or understand each other very well.
     
  4. Gary7

    Gary7 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm surprised by your stance here. It looks pretty clear to me, as ssosmcin pointed out, that they have a very limited time frame. Getting the shuttle fueled up to take off is high priority. On top of this, they have the angry Sasquatch natives to deal with, who seem to sense when they're wandering about. Having people outside making a burial is like throwing chum in the ocean and thinking sharks might not come.

    Every time a phaser is fired, they suffer drainage. And, they don't seem particularly effective against the natives, except to frighten them only momentarily. They never mention phaser settings, so we don't know what setting they used (probably too early in the show before they established this detail), but a logical guess would be stun at first, then kill when that wasn't effective. Citing one line from "Omega Glory" is not credible, as Tracey was deranged at that point anyway. "Thousands" is ambiguous in this context, given his state of mind. In fact, Spock says there were "several hundred Yang bodies" that they discovered near several discharged phaser packs. Who knows precisely how many were killed per power pack, but it's definitely not in the thousands. So, the power would need to be conserved. As it was, they barely had enough to get into orbit and landing was theorized to be very rough, if Spock hadn't jettisoned the fuel and ignited it.
     
  5. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    There is a sense of hurry in the episode - but that is a human instinct, to get out of danger as fast as possible. Spock if anybody should be able to calmly assess the facts of the matter and decide that, counterintuitively, staying put is the sensible thing to do. A major dramatic opportunity is lost here...

    Phasers can be drained for fuel (or other sort of takeoff oomph) in a few hours, which means this need not take place until a few hours before takeoff. Which could happen a week from the funeral.

    OTOH, phasers have never been indicated to suffer from lack of ammo in preceding episodes, and later ones will show they are good for thousands of kills. In the episode, we fail to see even a single kill - but OTOH we fail to see any sort of physical damage e.g. to the shield of one of the beasts, heavily indicating our heroes are using the stun setting. "Disintegrate" would not distinguish between strong and weak opponents! Plus, even a single established kill would raise morale on the hero side and drop it on the villain side, so an outright attack met by a determined phaser defense would actually be highly desirable.

    Why not? A clean kill in TOS does not leave a body!

    This is never stated in the episode.

    Getting to the orbit was a frivolous exercise in the first place. The castaways had no need to get into space, other than to get out of the reach of the cavemen - and that would have been far better achieved by camping out and slaying any approaching giants. Leave it to Kirk to effect the actual extraction, as he's so much better equipped to achieve it.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  6. Nacluv

    Nacluv Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Isn't it in Bread and Circuses where Spock says that he's tired of McCoy constant use of the term logic? :lol:
     
  7. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Sure, Kirk could have come back and extracted the seven corpses.

    That the creatures were able to kill two men armed with phasers proves staying put was not the right decision. Latimer didn't see or hear them coming, so the natives can apparently be stealthy when necessary.

    Gitano had his phaser knocked from his hand and without it was helpless to save himself. The creatures have good aim. They pinned Spock with the rubber boulder very neatly. They can disarm and trap their fleeing prey.

    The planet was full of these creatures, according to Kelowitz. Even with phasers, the landing party might not have been able to mow them all down. And Spock didn't seem to be willing to slaughter hundreds of natives. Why should he be? You expect him to decide to wipe out hundreds of lives who may only be guilty of preemptively protecting themselves, and still keep his people in jeopardy because he felt like he could wait a few days for Kirk to get back? If my car got a flat tire in a dangerous neighborhood, I'd work like hell to get the spare on as quickly as possible rather than wait the hour and a half for a tow. I might even drive on the rim until I got clear of the danger area, even though I'm ruining it in the process.

    I watched this episode again last night. After assessing the situation, Spock saw no chance of survival on the surface. None. The script was very clear on this. Getting into orbit increased their chances of survival since it's apparently easier to detect a ship in orbit than it is to find one crashed on the surface of a planet. Even if they failed, a quick death by burning up in a decaying orbit was considered preferable to the death at the hands of the hostile natives. It's all very well presented. They had no other option. You keep insisting they could camp out and wait six days. The problem is that nothing in the episode supports your assumption. They make it very clear they will not survive that long.
     
  8. Lt. Zanne

    Lt. Zanne Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    yes! I think he said if he were capable of getting annoyed, McCoys constant (purposeful, don't you think?) use of the word logic would be completely annoying. I think McCoy likes trying to get a rise out of Spock. I think it's his nature to be that way with anyone. ;D
     
  9. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    The fundamental fact of the matter is that humans cannot survive in space, or in ballistic flight. In contrast, humans can survive on the surface of a Class M planet for an indeterminate period of time, that is, a period not subject to countdowns of any rational sort. For a week, a human could survive on nothing but water licked off moist rocks, in bountiful supply at the crash site!

    The only factor really threatening the survival of the castaways on the planet was a bunch of cavemen. But why should the cavemen be a threat? There was no evidence of them being organized or united. Unlike the savage hordes of Cloud William, they would have no cultural animosity towards the exotic arrivals. If they were in any way humanlike, they would have no concept of armies at this stage of cultural development, no experience in campaigns, and no interest in territorial squabbles. Our heroes weren't sitting on a coveted local resource - they were occupying wasteland, the dwellers of which would be sorry outcasts indeed by local standards.

    The response of people like this to a deadly threat would in all likelihood have been a cautious retreat. But even a full-blown suicide assault would have done nothing but eradicated the threat posed by the very small mountain tribe eking out a living there. The key would be to stop sending human sacrifices to the locals, and to set up a camp of civilized people.

    Spock was acting alarmingly irrationally here, perhaps due to his human half overruling his Vulcan one, perhaps out of misguided (and misunderstood) concern for his human companions' feelings. Unless his aim indeed was a swift, fiery death for everybody, as opposed to the assured survival of some until inevitable rescue. But he himself claimed he would not be that egalitarian in his decisions of life and death.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. Gary7

    Gary7 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    A week. Well, clearly you've forgotten the time frame. It's no more than 2 days. Of course, we're not shown the landing party settling in for the night, waking up the next day, or the change from daylight to night time. The Captain's log starts the episode with stardate 2821.5 and later Kirk says they have until 2823.8 to complete the search. That's 2.3 star days.

    Well, sensibly speaking any energy weapon has a charge limit, so it's only logical to assume they are discharged in use and faster with higher settings.

    We are not shown any kills, that's right. If they used the highest setting, certainly a body, shield, or spear would disintegrate as we're shown in other episodes. At this point in TOS the only complete vaporization shown is of the duplicate Kirk in "What Are Little Girls Made Of?", which was produced earlier. Why didn't the landing party use the vaporize setting at all? I consider it an oversight of the writing. To "make it fit", you have to assume that they started with stun first and then the lowest kill setting, either to conserve power or perhaps theoretically Spock mandated to only wound them, not kill.

    You're forgetting that there are at least three lethal phaser settings. One is to heat up objects (like rocks, and this would certainly burn someone), another is to cut through objects like a lance (kill), or vaporize (dead for sure). Vaporize would obviously require much more power. Captain Tracey used the more conservative setting so he could kill more men. There's no "partial" vaporization ever shown in TOS, TNG, or DS9. If you're touched by the beam on the highest setting, you vaporize.

    If you stick to that argument, forget about making any assumptions beyond what is stated in the episode, something you've taken great liberty of in many, many other discussions.

    Frivolous? To get off the planet and head back to the Enterprise? Spock knew that the effects of the Murasaki quasar would make a search nearly fruitless. As he said, "SPOCK: If the ionisation effect is as widespread as I believe it is, Doctor, they'll be searching for us without instrumentation, by visual contact only. On those terms, this is a very large planet." They had to get off the planet, pure and simple.
     
  11. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    ...After which Kirk can trivially return. In a week.

    Kirk can also choose not to depart, for that matter. Or to leave shuttles behind to search for the survivors. The castaways are not left to their own devices by any stretch of imagination: their discovery is only a matter of time.

    Quite so - but "Omega Glory" shows us the orders of magnitude involved, so this doesn't appear to really be a problem.

    Spock could also always decide to use one phaser for effective defense and only drain the rest, which would mean leaving one further person behind. He was prepared to do that from the very start, remember.

    To the contrary, I'm using it as an explanation as to why there are hundreds of bodies standing as evidence for thousands of kills...

    There are in DS9 some settings that kill by leaving visible scorch marks, though. These in addition to the settings that kill without leaving a mark, and those that kill without leaving a body.

    Touche. But my point here is that energy conservation is an offscreen excuse we can use for explaining Spock's odd choices; it's not something that automatically dictates that Spock made a right choice.

    Which would mean the shuttle would be all the less likely to be found if it were taken away from the planet! Its visibility would only increase if Spock did that flare trick - and it appeared to be an afterthought only. Spock could just as well have concentrated on setting up a comparable flare on the surface of the planet, which he knew would be under scrutiny already, Murasaki effect or not.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  12. Gary7

    Gary7 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Trivially? He has no idea of the status of the landing party. They could be dead, severely injured, or struggling to survive. The best case scenario is that they found intelligent life who would help them, but that's highly unlikely. Going away for a week would mean certain death if they were still alive. You die without water in 3-5 days.

    Kirk must leave, and does what he can to deliberately delay it until the only choice would be to risk a court martial offense. Leaving behind several shuttles having to deal with all of the ionic interference and NO back-up could easily result in a bunch more stranded shuttles. That's not a wise option.

    Order of magnitude IS a problem. Clearly they haven't been able to fend off the creatures given the power settings they were using. I highly doubt primitive shields made of wood and thick hides are phaser resistant. It may be the environmental conditions were making the phasers less effective, but that's just heaping on more speculation.

    Yes, but it became clear they needed EVERY phaser on hand after Scotty's mistake.

    Are you kidding? A shuttle in orbit is far more detectable than one on the ground. By the time they got in orbit, the Enterprise had already departed albeit slowly. Due to the distance, the flare was the only thing that caught their attention. Had the Enterprise not left, the odds of detecting them in orbit would have been much greater.
     
  13. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    GIANT cavemen. With super human strength. They were the main and most deadly threat, yes.

    Sometimes it feels like we aren't talking about the same episode.

    I'm not gonna keep going around on this, but you are assuming these natives are just one tribe of a small number. And that Spock and the remaining four officers can hold them off with phasers and fend off starvation by licking rocks. However, within the episode, the implication is the "apes" are legion. Kelowitz, confirms this by reporting they are all over the place. There was no escaping them on the planet and there could be an entire civilization of these beings. We don't know, so we go with what we're given, which is constant, imminent threat of death by giant creatures with greater strength and ferocity. Nobody in their right mind would delay trying to leave when faced with that.

    Yes, you could suggest that Kirk could have left shuttles behind. But he didn't, he called everyone back. He also seemed to only have one more, the Columbus. Which was weird.

    The sensors were iffy, but it's logical to assume the Enterprise would also be scanning visually. Yes, the flare was unplanned, but when faced with certain painful death on the planet, the next option would be to head into orbit and play it by ear. The original idea was to get into orbit and hope that in the few hours they had, the Enterprise was still scanning for them. When Spock cut in the boosters, he cut the time back. When he jettisoned the fuel, he really whittled it down to six minutes. But he got them saved. He improvised. Sometimes playing it by ear is the right course of action. Staying on the planet would have cost lives. The script made no doubt of this.

    Since I'm repeating myself, I think I'm done on this one.

    Anton Karidian.

    Lt Commander Remmick in "Conspiracy" was reduced to a half disintegrated husk.
     
  14. Foxhot

    Foxhot Commodore Commodore

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    ''A clean kill in TOS does not leave a body!''

    Kodos/Karidian: ''Now they tell me.''
     
  15. JimZipCode

    JimZipCode Commander Red Shirt

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    Uneven writing. Spock shows much more awareness of the nuances of command in some of the earliest episodes: Corbomite, and Enemy Within. Spock in Corbomite and Balance of Terror (more so in Corbomite) also showed an ability to "read" aliens, anticipate how their tactical actions would be perceived.
    (I'm thinking of Spock's comment about "flypaper" in Corbomite, and his insistence in Balance that the Romulans must not be allowed to get back home and trumpet their success.)

    The Spock from those early episodes was quite capable of command. The Spock from many of the later episodes was not. To me, that is a loss, a depletion of his character

    Like Stiles in Balance of Terror? Rough stuff.

    That would mean that the Enterprise senior officers had that kind of bigotry in them. I have some trouble swallowing that. Also, the Federation itself seems to be without a streak of institutional bigotry. They have (had) a starship crewed entirely by Vulcans. Later, M'ress was a respected officer. Stiles stands out from the other officers and crew, which implies that his bigotry was an exception.

    I don't know if you're right about that. Do you have other examples?
     
  16. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Cavemen always are. Of course, the episode could be taken to describe an unrealistic situation if we want to. But only if we want to.

    Five people with phasers always can. Of course, the episode could be taken to describe a situation atypical of Star Trek if we want to. But only if we want to.

    Starvation is rarely an issue for a group of healthy people, as long as they have warmth, shelter and water. The location provided water, the shuttle provided warmth and shelter.

    Many survival stories get such things wrong. Our heroes faced barely any hardships at all, save for cavemen. And cavemen should be a known quantity when they so conveniently follow Earth patterns, with Folsom points and whatnot.

    What we really are given is three or four angry men throwing spears and rocks at strangers when the opportunity arises, and a supposed sighting of some more of the species. If these are cavemen, they should cease to be a threat simply enough - by killing a few of them.

    Not necessarily - the vulnerability of a shuttle was the reason for the emergency in the first place, so Kirk might hold back there. But it would be an option he would grow bolder with, given the initial success.

    Oh, I'm not in disagreement with that. I'm just saying that the script was implausible, and that all the implausibilities that manifested in the episode based on the script fell squarely on the shoulders of Spock who was making seemingly irrational decisions and finally triumphing against all reason. Which is weird, because Spock was supposed to be the rational guy.

    That's neither here nor there, because the point is that a kill can make a body disappear, and predominantly does. That sometimes a corpse is left is actually a good thing for the argument, as it explains the battlefield in "Omega Glory".

    Although as a side note, it would make sense for Lenore to kill her father with a phaser set on heavy stun, as supposedly unauthorized firings at stun settings do not trigger internal sensors, yet at kill settings they do. That is, they trigger an alarm in ST6, and if we interpret "Conscience of the King" this way, ST6 never really gets contradicted.

    To kill Kirk that way, Lenore would have to walk right next to him and push the trigger a few times, which may well have been her plan; an initial shot from a distance would make things easier. But the frail Anton would die from a faraway stun shot, too.

    The United States had all-black military formations at a time when institutional bigotry was in evidence - indeed, those formations were the evidence!

    Or that each officer has his or her particular choice for hatred (such as with Chekov and Klingons), and Romulans were Stiles' hot button.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  17. Gary7

    Gary7 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    :wtf: ?
    :wtf: ?
    :wtf: ?
    :wtf: ?


    I'm sorry, but you seem extremely hard pressed to concede anything at all when logic stands squarely in your face, to the point of stating unqualified generalities or inventing facts. When debating with you on the same position, it's great because you stick to logic and plausible extrapolations. Otherwise, it's a quagmire of frustration that leads to nowhere because of your insistence to be contradictory at all costs. You can't debate with someone when they turn away from sensible logic and then start making things up. I'm done here...
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2012
  18. Grant

    Grant Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I hate to say it, but I agree with this 100%.
    Spock (via the writers) was ridiculous in this episode.

    "Shoot to frighten." ???

    Showing a bunch of ape-men that you have some kind of 'fire-stick' that misses what it's being shot at. They would have no concept of shoot to frighten. Purposely missing them makes the ape folk think they are weak.

    At least blasting one of them with the (already established)heavy stun setting is way better.
     
  19. Mr_Homn

    Mr_Homn Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    while not attempting to use the stun is an oversight of the writers, it might be better to just imagine in your head that they found out the stun setting doesn't work on these creatures, and it was determined off screen. Cop-out, I know, but they could have easily have said that in the episode and we all would have bought it. then everything else is the same
     
  20. Grant

    Grant Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Then shoot to kill, one of them or the remaining 6 of us.--regretable OR

    disintegrate some rocks or whatnot to show the primatives what the weapons can do.

    Basically you don't impress the enemy by missing.