Gal Gadot cast as Wonder Woman In ‘Batman Vs. Superman’

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Enterprise is Great, Dec 4, 2013.

  1. Kai "the spy"

    Kai "the spy" Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Zeus thing is a big deal. Where she was modeled by her mother longing for a child and granted life by the gods (plural, female gods included), everything special about her now comes from who her father is. That takes a whole lot of the empowerement of the character away.

    The animated movie included the clay origin, and they needed about a minute of film to do that. What's the big deal?! I don't remember anybody complaining about how that was handled, or that it was hard to understand, or anything like that. Actually, most of the criticism on the clay origin has only come after Azzerallo screwed with it.

    But even then, why adress any origin at all?! The Lynda Carter series (at least the first season, which is all I've seen of it so far) and the "Justice League" cartoon didn't go further than "She's the princess of the Amazons", and that was absolutely fine.
     
  2. Fist McStrongpunch

    Fist McStrongpunch Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    To me, the people with those origins are all real valid people. The one with the clay origin is not. Which could be an interesting way to take a character, but not a Wonder Woman character.
     
  3. davejames

    davejames Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Regardless of what god created her, she's still taking that power and using it to be a protector and guardian of mankind--against, I'm assuming, the wishes of Zeus and everyone else from her realm. Which still seems pretty empowering to me.

    And the fact she was created by Zeus himself would seem to make her pretty special as well. Certainly more than being shaped by some clay on a beach.
     
  4. Admiral2

    Admiral2 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Horseshit.

    She was modeled in clay by a lonely ruler desperate to have a child of her own, but couldn't. The fact that any god or group of gods chose to quell her longing and turn that clay into her child is more special than just Zeus commaning her forth.

    And nothing about the creation of Zeus's children is "special." Heracles and Perseus were the result of their mothers doing it with Zeus-disguised animals. Athena was essentially a forehead zit. Ares was born from an illicit union between Zeus and his sister, Hera.

    And let's not get into where Aphrodite and her shell came from...
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2014
  5. davejames

    davejames Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I seriously doubt any movie is going to explore in depth the history of Zeus and how his various children were conceived (even assuming they stayed true to the legends and didn't greatly simplify or clean them up for a family audience, which seems unlikely).

    All that will matter to most is that "Daughter of Zeus" sounds pretty damn impressive for a superhero. And I have to agree.
     
  6. Agent Richard07

    Agent Richard07 Admiral Admiral

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    Zeus fathered her the old fashioned way with Hippolyta. He didn't create her through magic or anything like that. He can disguise himself as any woman's ideal man.

    I like this origin. The clay thing is a little too "out there" for my tastes. Ideally though, it might have been nice if her origin wasn't addressed at all as Kai said.
     
  7. davejames

    davejames Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah frankly I think it's already enough that she comes from some mystical other realm of Amazonian warriors. There's no reason to pile on anything else beyond that.

    Especially since she's already a hard character to identify with or relate to as it is.
     
  8. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    Er, why? In Greek mythology, which is real in Diana's world, all humanity was created from clay.
     
  9. Fist McStrongpunch

    Fist McStrongpunch Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes but I don't give a fuck.
     
  10. mos6507

    mos6507 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Then that would invalidate all Joseph Campbell "special birth" heroes' origins as "shit" as well, including Superman.

    Not every superhero has to have an everyman/everywoman origin.
     
  11. Fist McStrongpunch

    Fist McStrongpunch Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Don't interpret my own views for me. One specific origin being shit has no effect on those others.
     
  12. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    I find it hilarious that people think WW parentage is so important to get upset over. WW having a father does not make her less of a character or less of a hero.

    WW was still raised solely by Hippolyta and was raised to be Amazon with their culture and customs. Zeus is just a clause to explain why Diana is so special.

    Something DC has not really defined previously. If WW and all the Amazon's were granted with the same divine empowerment from the Greek Gods, why is Diana always present as the strongest? Donna was given the same powers that Diana was given, but was always portrayed as weaker. So was the Amazon Artemis, who took over the WW role briefly in the 90's. When Amazon fought other beings in the DCU, there powers ranged from a tier below WW to being average human level. Keep in mind that Diana has always been portrayed as Superman tier in terms of strength and durability. The problem DC had not defining what made Diana special led many to speculate that their is an entire island of Superman-tier women who essentially have no weaknesses.


    Making Diana a demigod in the same vein as Perseus, Theseus, Hercules and Achilles gives clause to where Diana's strength comes from and why she would be a cut above the rest of the other Amazons.
     
  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If her father is Zeus, creator of the universe, there's an argument that every one should get on their knees and obey, just the same as if Jesus turned up again, since his celebrity is also generated from being the son of the creator of the universe.
     
  14. Fist McStrongpunch

    Fist McStrongpunch Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Zeus didn't create the universe.
     
  15. Happy Xmas (War Is Over)

    Happy Xmas (War Is Over) Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    Exactly. Everything Wonder Woman stands for is from her Amazon upbringing. Her father has no bearing on that.

    Though Wonder Woman was a Demigod before the Nu52. Her grandfather was Ares. The very God who was her mentor in the Nu52 and who's mantle she assumed.
     
  16. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Oh! The Titans!

    (I just woke up.)
     
  17. Kai "the spy"

    Kai "the spy" Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    For one thing, what you yourself mention as "what makes Diana special" now comes completely from her father. It would be less of a problem if Diana had a human father, but was given her powers by the gods, but that is not the case. She's nothing special, except for who her father is.

    There is (latent) mysogeny at play here, and it has to be called out, esp. considering the character we're talking about.
     
  18. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Zeus does nothing for Diana in the comics though. Just like he does nothing for his children in other Greek myths. Diana is defined by her actions. Her parents don't define her. Diana has a relationship with her mother Hippolyta and none with her estranged Sky Father Zeus.

    I don't see the latent misogyny you're speaking of. Some people believe that making Diana, Zeus' daughter ruins whatever female messiah story the tale of the clay baby invokes. Problem is that nothing with the clay baby mythos really effects Diana's character or her actions. WW is treated no different as a human being because of her beginnings either as a clay doll or natural born baby. WW is capable of compassion, love and has made mistakes in both incarnations of her origins. WW is define by her actions as i said previously.
     
  19. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

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    Honestly, I really have no preference for either the Zeus as WW's father or the made from clay origin. I think both work perfectly fine for the character. Like other people have been saying up thread, it's the rest of the elements of the character that make her interesting not her origin.

    Just look at the parts of her mythology that are common knowledge, those tend to be the most important and noteworthy parts. All most people know about WW is that she's an Amazon princess, so I really think that is the most important part.
     
  20. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    That's incorrect. Diana's powers prior to the Zeus origin were gifts from her patron gods. The other Amazons have no such powers; they're just really elite humans, akin to Batman.

    In no version of the comics was Ares Hippolyta's father (he was in some of the original myths, but not in the comics). Hippolyta and the other Amazons were created by the Gods in the George Perez version, for instance.