"Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by USS Fardell, Dec 12, 2008.

  1. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

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    Humans normally go thru puberty before becoming sexually active. That doesn't mean it's the same for Ocampans.
     
  2. pimp

    pimp Commander Red Shirt

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    Is it me or was Kes fatter in that episode????
     
  3. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

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    They never showed her father although she did refer to him a few times.
     
  4. pimp

    pimp Commander Red Shirt

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    Sorry i think you may have miss read what i typed i was not going on about her father.

    I said that she looked rather FAT in that episode compared to the earlier seasons when she was young and slim.
     
  5. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But we know from Elogium that she wasn't, which was also already covered in this post.

    Pimp, yes Lien did gain weight. However, we're supposed to believe Kes the character didn't.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2008
  6. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Ocampa obviously go through puberty later in their lives than humans do.

    According to "Elogium", the Ocampa were supposed to go through elogium and be able to have a child (or children) in their fourth year and that means that it would happen when they were equivalent to a 35-40 year old human.

    Unfortunately, I must once again state that this whole confusing thing comes down to bad and sloppy writing. They messed up that poor species with so much contradictions and unrealistic things, like the whole lifespan and having children things that they actually didn't know what they were doing.
     
  7. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Actually, I think your point of reference is wrong.

    By her 4th year, Kes mentally will be about 35-40 but physically she'd be entering puberty.
     
  8. CaptJimboJones

    CaptJimboJones Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I thought "Fury" had some great ideas, but they weren't executed particularly well. I really wish they had managed to create a long-term arc, perhaps spanning several seasons, with "Evil Kes" trying to sabotage the ship.

    Kes was far, far more interesting as an evil villain. It was a shame that we only got to see this more compelling version of Kes in a single episode.
     
  9. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sorry, but I have to disagree here.

    I think that the whole thing of having Kes as a villain is horrible and totally out of character. It would have been as portraying Picard as a drunken alcoholic or Riker as a psychotic mass murder who would "take out" every crewmember who he suspected to threaten his post as Number One.

    It would be just totally wrong.
     
  10. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In an interview with Braga in Star Trek: Communicator. He said it was his intent to make Kes a reaccuring villian for the show. He felt it was easier to expore her powers by making her a bad guy instead of a good one. It's unsure why he never went thru with the idea.
     
  11. CaptJimboJones

    CaptJimboJones Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I can certainly understand that view, particularly if you were a big fan of Kes. Personally, her character never worked very well for me, which is probably why I preferred seeing her as a "bad guy."

    But like you said, we'll just have to disagree on that point, without being disagreeable.
     
  12. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It looks like some after-construction to me, made to "justify" the character destruction in "Fury".

    If it really had been the intention to make Kes the "bad guy", then why didn't they go ahead with that from the start instead of bringing back the character for only one episode in order to ruin, destroy and kill off the character? (Yes, the original intent was to kill off the character in "Fury" but Jennifer Lien made them change their minds about that.)

    Besides that, if there had been any such intents, it would have been brought up earlier as some lame excuse to why they did get rid of the character in season 4.

    kes was also very unbelievable as a villain. Everyone who have watched season 1-3 could see that Kes was the direct opposite of a villain. She was a nice, friendly and gentle person who rather would sacrifice herself than to harm her crewmates. The scenario with her as a villain isn't believable.

    Compare that to Seska who had a mean streak from the beginning. As for villains, Seven (with her troubled mind and tragic background) and the instable Torres would have been more believable as villains than Kes.
     
  13. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

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    Exactly. All that means is they are then able to reproduce. That may or may not mean they are sexually active before that. As for Kes and Neelix, their main decision in "Elogium" was not whether or not to have sex, it was whether or not to have sex with the intention of having a child. After all the "Elogium" only comes once in a lifetime but there were indications in other episodes that Kes could have a sexual relationship at any time.
     
  14. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What are you talking about?:confused:


    Braga wrote and produced Voyager.

    If he wrote Kes to be nice and innocent, he can also write her to be a villian. Him, Berman & Taylor created her, if anyone is to say what they want done with the character and why, it would be them. Kes is a character of fiction, let's not forget that. She is whatever they write her to be.

    Maybe Braga had other ideas for the show, maybe there wasn't any budget to keep her as a villian, I don't know. Who else would know that other than Braga?

    BTW, the interview in which he said that wasn't "after construction" considering he gave it before the episode aired. It was due to that article and magazine cover that everybody knew Kes was coming back.
     
  15. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    His statement was made around the time "Fury" was going to be aired. There were never any hints or antyhing about Kes becoming a villain during seasons 1-3 or after she was kicked out in season 4. If there had been any such plans, I'm sure that they would have mentioned it as another "reason" for kicking out the character in season 4, like "oh, we had plans to make her a villain but...."

    And it still doesn't explain why they have to bring her back for one, single episode in which they totally ruined and destroyed the character and also had planned to kill her off.

    Not to mention that the story in which they brought her back for the destruction was bad, unconvincing and unbelievable.

    OK, they created the character and can do what they like but they must take into consideration that ruining and destroying a main character will make many fans angry and dissapointed which in the long run will lead to a decrease in viewing and ratings.

    Which is what has happened after the character destruction made in "Generations", "The Gift", "Fury", "Endgame" and perhaps some other episodes as well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2008
  16. LLAP

    LLAP Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I definitely noticed this too. I was wondering if I was the only one since there is little mention of her obvoious weight gain anywhere (probably because they didn't want to hurt poor Jennifer Lien's feelings!).

    I found it quite irritating really since it's not as if the crew wouldn't have noticed a, shall we say, larger, Kes than they were used to.
     
  17. Ezri II

    Ezri II Captain

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    I do not think she got FAT! Her uniform changed and they made her up different. When she first got on the show, she was ok. When Kes left the show, she sure looked like a woman :bolian:
     
  18. LLAP

    LLAP Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Oh I'm not saying she didn't look great, just that there is certainly a difference that cannot be placed on just age - after all she ain't that much older in Fury than she was in season 1 (early 20s I think). I might get some screen-caps to make sure I'm not deluded hehe
     
  19. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    She obviously had a sligt weight gain but not so much that it was disturbing in any way.

    There were others who had weight gains too during those years, Robert Duncan McNeill for example. But that's seldom mentioned.

    Anyway, who cares about "Fury"? That episode was so bad and filled with flaws and contradictions so that a person's weight gain hardly has any impact
     
  20. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'm sorry, I still don't understand what your talking about.

    Kes' return in "Fury" didn't impact Voyager's ratings at all. Just as one fans disappointment in the development of one character doesn't overrule all the other fans of the show that stuck with it for the other cast members. Kes hasn't been a main character in 3 years, one ep. at the end of 6 season when 7 season has already been contracted isn't going to affect the show or it's ratings at this point. TPTB really weren't concerned anymore about Kes fans that hadn't been loyal to the show for all that time, they had plenty of Seven, Janeway, Torres, Doc., Tuvok & Paris fans to keep the show running without them.

    The show is called Star Trek: Voyager not Star Trek: Kes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2008