"Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by USS Fardell, Dec 12, 2008.

  1. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2007
    Location:
    inside teacake
    Ah but those are the ones you have to watch..

    I think we are coming at this from two different angles. I am accepting what I see on the screen as the facts of what happened to that character and looking for an in-universe explanation for that which seems out of character. Really any time someone goes nuts and their family say "he was the nicest man! he was never any trouble!" an explanation is looked for. I put it down to the insanity of Ocampan adolescence. Her age is irrelevant as we have no idea what her life cycle will be. As I said, imagine her directing all that rage at Q and it would be naught but a tantrum.

    However I accept that you are coming at this from outside the universe and saying No! This is not what should have happened! This is an attack on Kes fans!

    I find it more fun to work out a good reason why a dumb character/plot detour happened in-universe. We already know why they happened outside of the universe: bad writing etc..
     
  2. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2001
    Location:
    Lynx Empire
    Well, actually I'm trying to do the same sometimes, finding or figuring out possible explanations for certain weird events or contradictions in the Star Trek universe.

    You can always take a look at my "Voyager mysteries-and how to solve them" page at: http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Park/1964/Voyagermysteries.html

    which is a part of my Kes Website.

    I guess that "Fury" is the exception from that, probably because I don't want the character Kes to be destroyed and that I found the whole episode meaningless and annoying.
     
  3. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN USA
    In what ways was she weak or passive? People may love or hate the character for different reasons but I've never heard her called that before.
     
  4. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2007
    Location:
    inside teacake
    I had a look around your website Lynx! Yes you are quite a Kes fan. On my third watching of VOY all the way through I warmed to her a bit but that was about it. I did think her backstory in Pathways was very interesting.

    I think she was more stubborn then weak or passive.. but she was very quietly spoken so she appeared passive. This is is especially true if you contrast her with the other VOY women. Her manner was extremely gentle, which can be mistaken for passivity.
     
  5. Ezri II

    Ezri II Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    She did let NEELIX walk all over her.

    She played nurse to a hologram.

    Some time I just felt she was going to be used as a door stop and stay there and collect dust.
     
  6. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2001
    Location:
    Lynx Empire
    You're hitting the nail on the head here.

    One of the points with Kes that I find fascinating is that she's a contrary to the more typical "female hero" characters.

    She's not an "action character", more a contrast and a complement to such characters, most likely Torres Janeway and Seven.

    What's interesting is that she still gets things the way she wants by simply moving around the obstacles.

    There are some examples of Kes's ways to achieve things in certain episodes. Like "Jetrel" when Neelix is telling her that he was a coward who deserted from the army because he didn't want to fight in that war. Kes asks him what punishment it was for deserting the army and Neelix says "death penalty". Kes then asks him how he could see himself as a coward when he actually risked his life for something he did believe in.

    Or when she persuades Tuvok to go after Janeway and Chakotay in "Resolutions". When poor Kim tried the same , he was almost court-martialed.

    I guess that Kes can be seen as "passive" but she's actually the opposite of that. Her ways to achieve her goals are somewhat different than the others.

    I must also state that I don't think that she'd let Neelix "walk all over her". She was very independent and didn't hesitate to tell Neelix her meaning when he did behave stupid i so0me way. Finally she broke up with him (even if that event was very badly handled by the writers).

    As for her work in sickbay, she did a good job in assisting the "holodoc" and that job must be regarded as very important because of the casualties which Voyager was affected by from time to time.

    And yes, her background story in "Pathways" was very interesting.
     
  7. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2007
    Location:
    inside teacake
    I've been trying to think of an example where Neelix walked all over her but I can't come up with one. She was pretty much in charge of where the relationship went on on what terms from what I recall.. Neelix was the one more likely to give in.
     
  8. Ezri II

    Ezri II Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    Sounds like you are making Neelix look like a stalker.
     
  9. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2007
    Location:
    inside teacake
    I can not imagine how you get that out of what I said.
     
  10. Ezri II

    Ezri II Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    What if you had a girlfriend that was willing to do whatever you wanted with a relationship? What if your girlfriend was willing to back down just because she felt you would break up with her.

    Then what if your girlfriend acted like Neelix. Always talking about you to your friends and anyone in ear shoot of talking about you. Then, what if your girlfriend cannot even think of not being with you like Neelix was with Kes.

    Just be glad Neelix was a male and Kes was a female, if there genders were different Neelix would come after Kes with a kitchen knife after they broke up.

    Just me, if I was with someone that cannot even think what life would be like without me being their girlfriend I would think of the person as a Stalker when we do break up.
     
  11. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2007
    Location:
    inside teacake
    So it's you who is "making Neelix look like a stalker".
     
  12. Ezri II

    Ezri II Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    ME :angel: na I am a saint
     
  13. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    I think you're missing the fact that Neelix was alone & mostly homeless a great majority of his life. He backed down to Kes because she someone that needed him. Neelix freaks at the idea of being alone. She fell in love with him because he was like a protector and felt sorry for him. They had a very dysfunctional bond.
     
  14. Ezri II

    Ezri II Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    If Neelix was dysfunctional and Kes was dysfunctional, you are going to have a dysfunctional couple. If Neelix was alone and homeless the majority of his life and Kes gave him the feeling of being wanted and a feeling of a home life. Sure, I can understand Neelix would not want to go back to his life before Kes. That only traps Kes, as she really has a problem if she wants to move on with her life without Neelix.
     
  15. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    Many like who?

    I see those that don't understand the events that lead up to it but none that can't accept it. Kes was never going to be brought back as a main character no matter who wrote in because there was no budget to pay another actress. Besides, most of the people only watching the show for Kes stopped watching when she left. Why remain loyal to a small fan group that wasn't loyal to the show to begin with? TPTB were thinking long term and about an audience that would stick with the show to bring in ratings and a bigger budget, not to viewers that were going to leave over one character out of a cast of 9. That isn't fair to the other cast members like Mulgrew, Picado, Russ & Dawson too name a few that were acting their asses off to keep the show running.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2008
  16. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2001
    Location:
    Lynx Empire
    In that case, they should simply have left it as it was instead of insulting those dissapointed fans by ruin and destroy their favorite character in a very sadistic way.

    They could have won back some fans by bringing Kes back in a decent way, instead they lost those fans for good.
     
  17. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2001
    Location:
    Lynx Empire
    "Dysfunctional" is a somewhat rude word to describe their relationship.

    Besides that, none of them had any problems to continue with their lives after the break-up. Neelix had his cooking, his TV show (A Briefing With Neelix) and his role as Morale Officer. Kes had her job in sickbay plus her gardening. Both of them also had their social life with the other crew members.

    In fact, their relationship was obviously starting to fade already in season 2 when both of them had started to develope in opposite directions.
     
  18. Jeri

    Jeri Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2001
    Location:
    Chicago, Illinois, USA
    I didn't realize that Neelix and Kes's relationship could be seen as unseemly until sometime after the whole series was done, and I could see that Kes was really a child when Neelix met her.

    I guess I could cut him some slack for not realizing that, too. Neelix was a decent guy, and Ocampa life span is rather extraordinary in the general scheme of cultures.
     
  19. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    If they are ready lost those fans when the character left the show, what difference does it make? She wasn't coming back to the show as a main cast member & Kes fans were only going to tune into the ep. where she returned. If Kes fans weren't loyal to the show for the 2 and a half years she was gone, winning you back just near the last season isn't going to help, the show was nearly done. They were looking 7 years to make Star Trek:Voyager fans, not Star Trek: Kes ones. There were 9 other members of the cast(including Seven) that deserved just as much support and loyality.
     
  20. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN USA
    Kes was as young adult by Ocampan standards. Yes there was a wide range in age/experience between her and Neelix which is why the relationship didn't last but Kes was not a child.