Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Mytran, Nov 28, 2013.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I agree with 137th. The isolation door made no damn sense. TWOK's modifications to the engine room set were made with no consideration for how it was supposed to work or where it was supposed to fit inside the ship.
     
  2. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Too true! :lol:

    Agreed also that the door appears to depend on the Enterprise being a TARDIS.

    Regarding point 1, given that it severed the intermix chamber, I always took the whole point of the door to be to do just that. I think that the actual problem is that the door didn't open back up and that we didn't have that extra 20-30 seconds, as you said.

    For example, Scotty could have turned to see the door start to open, and the intermix chamber warming up, even while Spock kept on working frantically to make a few more adjustments, as if he was crunching a start-up procedure by a shortened checklist.

    By the way, I think the door coming down is symbolically a very powerful image. Despite its inconsistency from the point of view of world-building, I wouldn't want the scene of it coming down changed a whole lot. That scene more than served its purpose. Maybe a telescoping door could have produced the same emotional effect. Of course, that sounds like it would have been more expensive.
     
  3. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's not too hard to imagine a hole in the door so it closes the compartment, but not the tube.
     
  4. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Good point. Why separate the horizontal energy conduit if all the damage suggested was merely the release of lethal (coolant?) gas (according to the novelization that's what Midshipman Preston died from).

    I believe, after the bulkhead wall came down, you still have the option to "burn" the plasma stream through the bulkhead. Something for the ultimate emergency scenario (and you won't be able to seal off the horizontal conduit again, after having used up this option).

    Already in his TMP cross-section sketch Andrew Probert featured "energy seals" for saucer separation. I think those ring segments of the energy conduit can cut off and seal the plasma energy stream, too. The plasma energy further to the stern was apparently somehow "bottled up" and/or what we are still seeing is the effect of highly energetic Cerenkov Radiation.

    As a matter of fact the engine room deck level with the horizontal energy conduit is not the top-most deck, there is still an upper level both Spock and Kirk arrived and had to use a ladder down.

    In post # 64 I illustrated what I think to be the correct level of the main engine room (more to come, soon)

    [​IMG]

    Bob
     
  5. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    That would allow space for the "main energizer chamber", which I always thought would stick out the side of the hull, like that infamous TMP corridor would in front.
     
  6. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    While that diagram makes it appear as if there is a large amount of space above main engineering, it doesn't take into account that the secondary hull tapers down again at the front, providing less headspace over that area than this drawing implies. Also, most side-view cutaways I've seen has the floor of engineering in-line with the top of the shuttle bay doors, considerably higher than it is depicted above, despite the match-up with the y-branch conduits (which were arguably off-angle in the set compared to the studio miniature).

    And if you're referring to this scene with the vertical ladders, I was always under the impression that this was somewhere in the connecting neck between the primary and secondary hulls (due to the narrow nature of the walls), well above engineering, that they were using to get around since the turbolifts were "inoperative below C-deck".
     
  7. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Since the ship was still able to go to warp with the door down then it would stand to reason that the door protected the crew but did not impede power transfer. It's the same issue of where does the ship pull the power from the vertical/horizontal conduits since we hardly see any power leads running from it.

    Actually there is plenty of vertical space, even on the 1000'/305m model for the vertical door. Remember there is a whole level above the main room. The only corridors that don't fit well are the ones heading to the front of the ship :)

    (Click image to enlarge.)
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    I got the side view almost finished and believe there remains sufficient headspace for the upper engine room level near the bow, even when looked at in a front view.

    Yes, I believe most of these follow Andrew Probert's cross-section sketch of the engineering hull where he tried to accomodate that 7 level engine core "tower" (not his design!) within the engineering hull of a 1,000' Enterprise.

    The dilemma: In order to accomodate the upper level of the warp engine room the "tower" would rest on the keel and suck in dark and/or space energy (that would have been something but because of retroactive continuity probably not an issue worth pursuing ;)).
    Creating some space to tap into the antimatter reserves, however, pushed the upper level into the top bow area where there isn't really enough space. :(

    I wholeheartedly concur, but this is not the upper level I referred to.
    It's the one above the main engine room floor level both Kirk and Spock arrived on in TWOK and then used the starboard side ladder to descend to the main floor.

    Here is what the upper level of the studio set looked like in TMP: http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tmp2/tmphd0433.jpg

    Bob
     
  9. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    AH! Okay, now I get what you're saying there. I misunderstood.

    Yes, I guess it is possible that there could just barely be enough room for the door to be stored in the space above. This cutaway from Eric Kristiansen actually tried to take that into account and I think does a fairly good job of it. There are two closely-placed bulkheads right in the spot where the door would be stored when open, just at the highest rise of the secondary hull above the intermix chamber. So I could see that they might be able to fit it in there.

    But I do still think that a 2-piece door would have made more sense to me. Dammit! :D :)
     
  10. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Kristiansen's cutaway puts the engine horizontal room too high. There wouldn't be any space for the room above.
     
  11. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    I was going to mention the impracticality of the vertical isolation door when I first started this thread, but the opening post was quite long enough! I agree that the drama of the scene works extremely well with a vertical door, with it nearly stranding or crushing that hapless crewman! It would not have been the same with twin horizontal doors, even though that would have made more sense from a sensible design point in practically every way!

    1) The area would be sealed off twice as fast
    2) The horizontal conduit can be sealed externally (as well as via the internal seals, if neccessary)
    3) The conduit can still function even with the door in place.
    4) There isn't a single massive bulkhead on the deck above getting in the way most of the time.

    And yes, there are small louvres visible on the vertical door which might permit the passage of warp energy along the conduit. But to imagine the louvres flip-flopping one after the other throught the conduit as the door descends seems an inelegant and overly complicated solution, IMHO.

    Count me in for the campaign to install sensible doors on Enterprise-class starships! :lol:
     
  12. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    Thank you for noting the refit is Enterprise-Class (Andy Probert proably thanks you too.)
     
  13. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    @ Mytran

    Good practical considerations. However, a vertical isolation door would have trapped Midshipman Preston and the other cadet inside because the horizontal energy conduit would have blocked their escape route much sooner.

    I think Nick Meyer deliberately wanted to create a Star Trek "Titanic" scene. Reliant's phaser cutting was the "iceberg" and the door that came down had all the characteristics of one of Titanic's bulkhead doors.

    Come to think of it its hilarious. It almost looks like "Titanic" was plagiarizing ST II (well, the film score composer was the same, too ;)).

    Now, are we going to have a new classification debate or do we accept the bridge simulator label? :D

    Bob
     
  14. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    Not again please! ;)

    I agree that the horizontal door setup would have spelled doom for Preston & pal. However, the intention behind the design is to isolate as many of the crew as quickly as possible.
    Sorry guys, too slow! :devil:

    I don't know about Titanic allusions, but there certainly were a lot of vertical descending doors around back in the early 80's. Indianna Jones found plenty in the Temple of Doom!

    They may not make much sense, but they make great scenes.
     
  15. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Ack! Another Constitution vs Enterprise class debate?!?!?

    [Runs and hides]

    :eek: :brickwall:
     
  16. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Actually, I don't agree. Given the slowness of the door, my interpretation was that its slowness was a feature, intended to give the engine crew some time to get out, in situations when forcibly shutting down the intermix chamber was necessary.

    Its main function was to shut down the reactor, for example when it became dangerously unstable. True, it evidently also served to isolate the aft of engineering when it became dangerously uninhabitable, but its slowness implied that there was an ethic that influenced the design, namely that they intended those back there to have their chance to get out. At least, that's my view.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2014
  17. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Indeed. I don't think that quick-closing isolation doors like we saw on, say, the Death Star, would have been suitable for giving the crew time to evacuate. That, plus it would likely cause the 23rd century equivalent of OSHA fits if they malfunctioned occasionally and cut someone in half by mistake. Those things were frickin' dangerous! :eek:
     
  18. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Agreed. The reason I mentioned the Titanic bulkhead doors was simply that when I watched the film I noticed that I had seen the same cogwheel moving mechanism before, namely in TWOK: http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0461.jpg

    And, of course, again in TUC, another Nick Meyer film: http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tuchd/ch12/tuchd2288.jpg

    (Can somebody please explain the "thing" in the middle of the TNG engine room set?)

    Bob
     
  19. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Well, it is called the Death Star...
     
  20. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Who is John Galt?
    :lol: Well, yeah...