First contact borg inconsistency?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Hawkeye_90, Dec 31, 2013.

  1. Hawkeye_90

    Hawkeye_90 Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    In TNG the enterprise weapons and torpedos did nothing to the borg and the borg were able to adapt right away to the star fleet weapons, or so my memory tells me, but yet in first contact the star fleet weapons just tear the cube to pieces how?
     
  2. AgentCoop

    AgentCoop Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Well, first of all, by the time we get to FC Starfleet has had several years to develop new weapons and tactics for use against the Borg. They've known since The Best Of Both Worlds that it was just a matter of time before the Borg attempted another invasion.

    Even so, however, the Starfleet weapons don't seem to be making much of a dent in the cube until the Enterprise-E shows up. It's not until Picard takes over the fleet and orders everyone to concentrate fire on what he knows to be a weak point that the cube starts taking heavy damage.
     
  3. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Upgrades to Starfleet technology in the years inbetween. The first time the Borg and the Enterprise fought in "Q Who", the Enterprise did massive damage and it took quite awhile for the Borg to adapt and repair.
     
  4. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Seems like Picard would've pointed out that weakness during some tactical briefing during the years between the two Borg invasions?
     
  5. Count

    Count Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    already explained in Best of Both Worlds, Shelby and La Forge were discussing anti-borg tech and Shelby projected 24 months before they'd be ready, that was 8 years before First Contact.

    Voyager was able to pull plenty of random crap out of their asses to save the ship and the day (the plot reactors didn't work all the time, remember), and add to that, Starfleet had a lot more info on the borg after the BOBW battle, whereas they only had the original Q-Who encounter the first time.

    Easily stands to reason that some of the theoretical anti-borg tech that Shelby's team worked on was brought online and at least partially successful during the battle, which would explain the damage.

    As for the comments on "weaknesses", there aren't _meant_ to be any, that's why they're cube shaped. If memory serves, the draft of the script explained the vulnerability that Picard targeted as a ship having crashed/rammed into that area breaking the outer and inner hulls (Maybe it was supposed to be the Defiant before Behr complained, I don't know). So in FC, I argue that the weakness they aimed for was just a hull breach caused in the battle that Picard listened in on to find out was easily exploitable.
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I still don't know how Picard is suppose to be able to "listen in" on the Borg when Crusher supposedly removed the implants? Seems like the Borg would've known Picard's strategy as well?
     
  7. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe the collective does something on a much deeper level in the brain than Starfleet medical science can detect?
     
  8. Hawkeye_90

    Hawkeye_90 Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    The borg cube took massive damage to its outer hall before picard took command that is a data paraphrase when they are on the bridge of the enterprise.
     
  9. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Perhaps Starfleet got better at coordinating an armada engagement with the Borg since Wolf 359.
     
  10. Count

    Count Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    7 of 9 created organic interlink nodes for 3 drones merely using parts of their hippocampus, Locutus being such a critical drone to the invasion of the Federation probably had something vaguely similar done.
     
  11. Rarewolf

    Rarewolf Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Quite. If you look at the area they damaged they probably could have destroyed the cube if they didn't stop to investigate. Unless the Borg were just playing dead.
     
  12. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    Consistency with the Borg went out the window once they decided to toss out the idea of a Borg collective in favor of a Borg hive with a queen.
     
  13. Bacl

    Bacl Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The television series was able to do more thoughtful and creative things. they realized the real terror would be weapons being more or less useless against the borg, and thus as the Enterprise and other ships fired on the borg, they had no success (usually) and no real explosion.

    But the movie needed to be BIG BIG BIG, and they were interested in making it something "a general audience" can enjoy, which means DUMB IT DOWN, DUMB IT DOWN. Star Trek fans would pay to see it no matter what, so who cares about making a movie for them? If a general audience saw the weapons doing nothing, or fizzling out on the surface of the cube, they'd be like, "Duhhhhhh....why no go boom? Need go boom and fire and 'splosions!" But with giant loud blow-'em-up torpedos, that general audience can hoot and fist pump and so forth.

    Why could they blow it up right away, after Captain Picard magically remembers the special spot to fire on to blow it up? Because the plot needed it. They weren't making a movie about an endless space battle. They needed the cube gone. So what if Picard remembers a magic weak spot? No one is going to detect or blow up the tiny sphere that exits, apparently, not even as it flies through a fleet of starships. Have everyone fire on the same spot and blow the thing up.
     
  14. Gaith

    Gaith Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ... An ass pull? :p
     
  15. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    I take your "the plot needed it" and raise you "the TV show couldn't afford it" - particularly in the case of the Enterprise damage. We're told of massive hull breaches and heavy casualties in engineering yet the Borg cutting beam very noticeably isn't leaving a mark on the hull.
     
  16. Infern0

    Infern0 Captain Captain

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    If they updated the weapons to like auto-cycle through frequencies, then you could see how they could do that level of damage.
     
  17. Borjis

    Borjis Commodore Commodore

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    if you watch any of the extras on the disc it explains the Enterprise E was fitted with upgraded weapons specifically to deal with the Borg.

    The quantum torpedos in particular, where made to deal with them. Notice how they do severe damage to the cube and obliterate the orb firing on Montana?
     
  18. inflatabledalek

    inflatabledalek Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I actually like after have several years to study and prepare (not just for the Borg of course, IIRC they've had a Jem'hedar ship to play with for a little while as well by this point too), Star Fleet is able to put up a more cohesive fight than before and basically wear the Borg down. They're still tough and it takes a lot to hurt them, but they can still be hurt.

    It's just a shame Picard doesn't just put the extra kicker in the work the fleet has already done rather than pulling magic voices out of his head.
     
  19. GotNoRice

    GotNoRice Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    By the time the Enterprise-E got there, the Cube had been in a running battle with the fleet for quite some time. Yet despite that, it almost certainly still would have made it to earth had the Enterprise not intervened.

    I certainly got the impression that Picard heard the borg discussing a damaged area/vulnerability and that is where he got his info from, not something he could have put in a briefing ahead of time. There were several occasions where it was mentioned that only a fraction of his implants were removed.
     
  20. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    When? I've been watching Trek for a really long time and have never heard any dialogue to that effect.

    And if that was the case, it would be silly for Starfleet to put Picard in command of a starship (the most advanced one in the fleet) that could be used against the Federation.