Farscape or Babylon 5?

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by kirk55555, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I didn't think it was emotionally powerful at all. It was just Londo going out with a wimper. Atleast if they hadn't spoiled it I could have been surprised, and it would have had that going for it. Spoiling it was definately bad writing, and the idea itself was stupid. If I'm being very fair, it was well written for what it was. The idea was so bad that I don't think it could be written any better, since the core idea was so stupid. That said, its all opinion. I didn't like it, and not because Londo's fate was bad. I didn't need him to have a happy ending, even though he's my favorite character. I just wish it wasn't a really stupid ending.

    You know, I think you're being exactly what you accuse me of being. You like Londo's plot, so you think that automatically makes it great. It doesn't. Its all subjective. Londo ended up being controlled by a space bug because the shadows allies are more powerful then the shadows themselves. It was just bad, atleast to me. Just because you disagree doesn't make you anymore right than I am. Everything I say is my opinion. I'm not saying you have to agree with me, or that my opinion is THE opinion. To me, it was horrible, and its not good just because you think it is, or because you think I need characters to always have a hapopy ending, which I don't. Sure, I prefer it, and I'm not a huge fan of tragic endings anyway, but it can be done well. JMS did not do it well in my opinion. I'm not trying to say you are wrong, because unlike some people I don't do that. To me, its horrible writing. Just because you don't agree doesn't make you objectively right in saying this was good writing.
     
  2. Jan

    Jan Commodore Commodore

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    ...is insane. --JMS
    That's twice you've said that. Where on earth did you get that impression? And why?

    Jan
     
  3. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The shadows didn't put bombs all over a planet with no one knowing or put space bugs on planetary leaders. From a outright War perspective the Shadows were more powerful than their allies obviously, but the allies are capable of stuff the shadows weren't, and I'd say the ability to control/threaten a whole planet like that makes them more powerful at what they do (behind the scenes evil and manipulation as opposed to outright conflict) than their masters, even though the Shadows were supposed to be good at stuff like that. The allies just seem to have been written as almost all powerful, atleast in their manipulations of the centauri, and not even the Shadows were able to do that.
     
  4. Jan

    Jan Commodore Commodore

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    You seem to have forgotten that they Shadows killed plenty of colonies and planets on their own. And rather than using Keepers, all we know for sure is that they manipulated the Psi Corps which in turn did quite a bit of manipulating of their own. And they manipulated the other races to go to war with each other. Might those leaders have had Keepers? We don't know. The Drakh are still working behind the scenes, same as they always have. But they knew that the only thing they could hold over Londo was the safety of his people.

    Jan
     
  5. JoeD80

    JoeD80 Captain Captain

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    Sorry you didn't like it Kirk, but in this case you are wrong about it being "stupid." That's not a subjective opinion statement. Londo sacrificed himself. It had nothing to do with how powerful the aliens were. The Centauri were the ones who had the bombs in the first place. The Narns are the ones who attacked. The Drazi helped set up the Alliance because they had the pods. The Centauri weren't making excuses for not knowing - the ships were unmanned. You're missing key connection points that are actually there in the story in your rush to claim it's bad writing.

    The Shadows did control others when they seeded their ships everywhere - that's how G'Kar knew about them in the first place. And the organic ships - that's power the Drakh don't have that we see so far anyway. The Shadows are definitely more powerful.

    Also - the Shadows' and Drakh's motives *were not the same*


    Also, stop saying something was spoiled when you were wrong in almost every single detail of what was to come in the story.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  6. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

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    I'm pretty sure when I watched the show Londo's story was one of my favoritep arts of the show. I think, Kirk55555, you're one of the only I've come across who hated Londo's story so vehemently.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  7. The Mirrorball Man

    The Mirrorball Man Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, and it's a tragedy, but at this point, I think it's quite clear that Kirk has no taste for tragedy, and that "stupid" is the word he uses for whatever he doesn't like.
     
  8. Praetorian

    Praetorian Captain Captain

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    I can understand kirk's complaints about the story having been (somewhat) spoiled. Frankly, I don't think anything was gained by revealing Londo's fate as early as season 3 (I would speculate that JMS did it because he was afraid of cancelation leaving alot of unresolved threads).

    However, Londo's fate is quite logical. He flirted with the Shadows when it suited him and, when it no longer did, he decided to end the relationship. With nuclear weapons. His comeuppance was inevitable (a fact that Morden made quite clear). The fact that the Drakh resorted to those very same nuclear bombs to coerce Londo only reinforces the karmic aspect of it. Also, had the Centauri not been so agressive recently (something that was only possible due to Londo's actions) the other nations might have been more lenient, deciding not to resort to orbital bombardment. Again, another layer of karmic tragedy.

    Londo's sacrifice is also quite logical. Some have said that season 1 Londo would not have done that. I'm not so sure. Londo was always a patriot. Everything he did was for the greater good of his people. In this instance he was just being himself, I believe.

    Nothing about it was arbitrary or stupid.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  9. Neroon

    Neroon Mod of Balance Moderator

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    Generally among the Babyloniac fandom, it's not regarded as a spoiler. In fact the only thing that is regarded that seems more to be the announcement of the titles for the last several episodes of S5. Only seemed to have been a problem at that time, that being "The Fall of Centauri Prime".
     
  10. JoeD80

    JoeD80 Captain Captain

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    In Joe's notes for season three it sounds like he was wondering whether to put this in season three or four:

     
  11. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Thats totally unfair. Just because I think Londo's fate of being an alien space bug puppet was stupid doesn't mean I hate tragedy. Sure, I prefer an ending to not be tragic, but it can be done well. I just think londo's wasn't an example of a well done "tragic" ending. Attacking my opinions or making completely wrong statements about what I like or dislike isn't going to change that.

    Well, We're own to the last four episodes. This will be a large post, because I watched all of them last night.

    The Wheel of Fire - G'Kar's welcoming party on B5 was great. He's so popular its actually causing problems on B5. I knew Garibaldi would get caught drunk eventually, it could have been a lot worse for him. Lochley's conversation with Garibaldi and herself and her Dad was interesting. Lyta is outright insane. Sheridan should have just shot her (it was awesome when he was brought in to counter her as one of the only people she can't mess with). I liked seeing Lochley take her out with a punch. Lyta is insane, she's a terrorist, and she's also doing everything Byron didn't want, and doing it in his name. Honestly, thinking back, Byron was pretty useless. They could have made Lyta lose her marbles in an episode or two, instead of dragging his sub plot for so long. I didn't think it was bad, but it does seem kind of pointless at this point, kind of like padding. G'Kar taking her with him is a good idea, it gets the crazy woman away from the station, and maybe he can make her more stable (not that we ever learn her fate or anything :borg:, but still its a good idea). She was an ass to Garibaldi, and overall she's the poster child for everyone who hates telepaths. she's the worst of the telepaths in one person, with mental instability and unbeliveable power. While it is never shown or explained, I hope Garibaldi screwed her over in the end. Overall, this was a good episode, although I now feel absolutely no sympathy for Lyta, who now almost makes the mad centauri Emperor look like the picture of mental health.

    Objects in Motion - G'kar needing security to walk the halls was interesting, he sure has a lot of fans. The guy with the statue's was creepy, I was sure he'd come back and do something, and I was right. Lyta's comment about noone wanting her got a response of "well, duh" from me. She's a crazy telepathic terrorist with too much power and an anger problem. The assassain using a stolen link was weird. you'd think it would be made so that someone couldn't tamper with it. To be fair, its probably very hard and he was probably a professional. The going away party was a good idea for a trap, and Zach did a good job of catching the assassain and saving G'Kar. The narn trying to shoot G'Kar wasn't a big surprise. I did like seeing crazy Lyta scanning the assassain. The exit of G'Kar and Lyta was great. I like how Garibaldi beat the board of directors, it was exactly the kind of thing he'd do, and having an account to hire assassains for revenge if he or his wife die was a great idea. Overall, this was a good episode with some great moments.

    Objects at Rest - As the final filmed episode this season, and the final episode set in the present, this was a very good episode. This whole episode had a somber feel, and it was done very well. The music was also very epic and was perfect for the episode. G'Kar's choice of replacement was interesting, and the way they did his message was great. I liked Garibaldi's choice of the new board of directors. Its basically all people like himself, who won't be yes men and will tell him the truth and argue with him. Sheridan and delenn's exit from B5 was excellent, especially the last shot of them looking at B5 and the B5 staff looking at them. I was shocked when Lennier left Sheridan to die. It looked like he was coming back for him, but it was still something I didn't expect. Seeing Londo on Minbar was interesting, although the gift was kind of annoying, especially since we don't find out what happens with it (although I'm going to assume it didn't end up working). Sheridan's ending narration was interesting, and ended the episode really well.

    Sleeping in Light - I'm just going to say it right now, this finale was amazing. Its emotional and has many powerful scenes. Sheridan and Delenn give great performances this episode. The gathering of the crew was cool. It was nice to see Ivanova again. Emperor Vir's story about Londo was interesting. I'm guessing by the dialog when they talk about absent friends that Lennier also died in the last 20 years. Delenn and Sheridan's scenes were great, especially their goodbye, which was very powerful. I'm not so sure about B5's fate. Even if the diplomatic stuff wasn't needed their anymore, wasn't it also an important trade hub? Having a space station serve like that seems like it would be something someone would want. Blowing it up seems like a bit of a waste. Still, Sheridan's final walk through was great, and his final scene on the white star was just awesome. The end of the station was a great scene, and the ending with the cast and the comparison shots was cool (although G'Kar's old pic, presumably from the pilot The Gathering, had some pretty freaky makeup). This was an amazing ending to the series. The future stuff worked well for a last episode, and I don 't think they could have ended it better. The series ended with some questions I wish had been answered (like the final fate of Lyta, Lennier, Bester and others, what exactly the telepath war was, etc) but that doesn't make this ending any less effective. I have to say this is probably one of my favorite endings ever. It was done so well, and very well acted.

    So, it's over. 110 episodes over 5 seasons. I have to say, I loved Babylon 5. Sure it had a few flaws, but it had a lot of great stories and some of the most memorable characters in Sci Fi. Londo and G'Kar especially are easily in my top 10 sci fi characters list. I'm extremely glad I gave this show a chance. The only regret I have is that I didn't watch it sooner. When it comes to my favorite Sci Fi shows, I'd say its probably #4, after Star Trek, Star wars (which is at #2 mostly for the EU, not the movies) and Firefly. Thats not a knock against B5, its just tough competition. I know there are still some movies I need to see, and a spin off series, and I'll get to them eventually, although probably not for awhile. Overall, Babylon 5 was a great show.

    I never thought that a thread I made asking which show I should watch would go on this long, and have me talking about a whole first time viewing of a TV series. I posted my first thoughts on Midnight on the Firing Line on August 4, 2012. Its now April 10, 2013. A bit over seven months to watch a whole series isn't bad, when you consider that there was a long break or two in getting the enxt season, and an aborted watching of a second show for awhile. Its weird to finish B5. I'm not sure what I'll watch next, although there won't be a topic about it. After 110 episodes, I'm running out of ways to talk about things. I'd hate to see how many times I've written "interesting, great, awesome" since I started posting about B5 :lol: I'm thinking about going with shows I can see for free, unlike B5 which I bought all the seasons. The public library has all of the newer Battlestar galactica. I watched the first season and a half before (back when they only had Season 1 and 2.0) and I liked it well enough, so I might start it over. I'm not certain, though. It will just depend on my mood.
     
  12. flavaflav

    flavaflav Captain Captain

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    all of these Qs get answered in the Psi-Corps & Centauri book trilogies. all canon too. definitely worth the reads, if you can find them. otherwise, we can spoil everything here...
     
  13. JoeD80

    JoeD80 Captain Captain

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    She and Lennier both die in the Telepath war. It was actually supposed to be part of a Babylon 5 feature film, but that didn't get made.

    He had a choice - screw over Lyta or screw over Bester. Which do you think he would choose?

    What happens is what was shown in the future scene back in War Without End in season three. That's why Londo had Sheridan and Delenn in the jail cell and they talk about their son being there as well. (David's sixteenth = 2278, also 17 years from Shadow War as future Londo mentions in that episode.)


    I think the Alliance members no longer needed a station to trade stuff. The station was there because it was neutral territory between alien worlds that didn't necessarily get along. Now that they are mostly Alliance members they don't need that neutral spot.


    The makeup team was indeed different on the pilot vs. the series.
     
  14. Jan

    Jan Commodore Commodore

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    ...is insane. --JMS
    It would have been seen in the spin-off Crusade episode "The Path of Sorrows" except that an agreement couldn't be made with Patricia Tallman so that part had to be re-written.

    Jan
     
  15. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Lennier saw a chance to break out of Delen's Friend Zone twenty years earlier than he expected. He didn't even have to do anything, just walk away. It was a huge temptation for him, and Morden's ghost outright said that it would happen.
     
  16. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    Kirk,although you'll get varying opinions on the worth of watching the Spinoffs and movies, the one movie most agree is fantastic In The Beginning (It's a Prequel). The framing story is Londo as an old man telling a B5 story to children.

    Many fans advise newcomers to watch his as the Pilot and to generate their interest to see how good 5 can be. Even JMS is OK with substituting In The Beginning for The Gathering (Actual B5 Pilot), though, it does have some spoilers if watched as the Pilot, and I think, considering your reaction to Sheridan's Time Travel to Centauri Prime's future and Londo's flashes of future, that you are quite lucky to be watching it after you have seen the whole Series, rather then before the Series.

    So, anyways, yea, you should definitely put B5: In The Beginning on your to do list, if nothing else.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2013
  17. JoeD80

    JoeD80 Captain Captain

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    I was thinking of the "Wars of the Mind" outline in the TV movies book. It says something along the lines of "the fiery deaths of Lyta and Lennier can be used to promote the movie" (paraphrasing)
     
  18. Jan

    Jan Commodore Commodore

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    ...is insane. --JMS
    Ah, I'd forgotten about that one. JMS has put it in enough places that, even though he reserves the right to change anything not seen onscreen, I think we can safely assume that the fate of Lyta and Lennier is canon.

    Jan
     
  19. Nagisa Furukawa

    Nagisa Furukawa Commander Red Shirt

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    This is true, but the past-G'Kar image in the final montage is from Midnight on the Firing Lane, not The Gathering.
     
  20. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^Yeah, 'The Gathering' version of G'Kar is even more different than how he ended up looking. Still, it's nothing compared to how freakish Delenn looks in the pilot! ;)