Farscape or Babylon 5?

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by kirk55555, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. Snatcher42

    Snatcher42 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    The telepath storyline would have worked a lot better had they been introduced and used mostly as a B-plot during the war with Earth, as I believe was originally planned.
     
  2. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's certainly not helped by the fact that the plight of the human telepaths has only been touched on a few times over the years, so it's hard to fully appreciate why they are the way they are. You pretty much have to read the Psi Corps novels to really get what's going on with them.
     
  3. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, early on there were some sympathetic ones in the telepath underground railroad that Franklin was helping along. But Byron simply wasn't sympathetic, Zach summed him up perfectly at the outset. He was the kind of leader that the Inquisitor was set on. It's a shame the Vorlons weren't around to show Byron the depth of his insignificance.
     
  4. JoeD80

    JoeD80 Captain Captain

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    I don't think these telepaths were supposed to be sympathetic. That's how Lyta sees it, but not how the audience is supposed to take it. After all, and I believe this is revealed in the next few episodes or so so I'll put it in spoiler tags:

    Byron is Bester's ex-partner!

    You don't get to that point by being a wholesome character.


    However, Sheridan only sees telepaths as tools, and this was presented in the show in subtle ways. The way he uses the frozen telepaths for the civil war and how he regards their colony in Paragon of Animals: he wants them there so he can have telepaths on *his* side in the war and says as much to Garibaldi. It's not about them as people, it's about his strategy. Also, according to JMS this was the reason Sheridan saw himself in a Psi Corps uniform way back in the Kosh vision in season two - because he's treating the telepaths as Psi Corps does, as tools.
     
  5. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    I quite agree; I wanted to stay away from spoilers as much as possible. As to Sheridan's dream from way back, I hadn't thought of that interpretation for his being in a Psicorp uniform. Now, I want to watch it again.
     
  6. flavaflav

    flavaflav Captain Captain

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    When it comes right down to it, Sheridan uses everyone to install himself as a dictator who reigns for almost two decades. He uses the Minbari for their tech; the Narn, Rangers and Humans under his watch on B5 as cannon fodder; the League of Non-Aligned Worlds to strengthen his borders and as allies in war; and Telepaths as spies and as a few tactical nukes. The telepaths actually get off easy compared to how badly he uses everyone else and how many of their lives he tosses away. He is a typical military general who uses everyone around him as pawns to get what he wants.
     
  7. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    Delenn's going to have a short, sharp talk with you.
     
  8. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's pretty accurate, really. At the end of the day, the real difference between Sheridan and Clark is that Sheridan was simply better at accumulating power without pissing too many people off.
     
  9. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Awesome!

    But wouldn't you agree Dune is full of "future spoilers"? I mean, in the first book alone they outright tell you throughout Paul is the messiah who goes on to overthrow the emperor.
     
  10. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Strange Relations - Byron can be a bit too melodramatic at times. Lochley once again proves that she's a horrible person. Garibaldi should have hit her instead of going for Bester. Its not that I can't see her side with this, she doesn't want Bester trouble, but she goes beyond not wanting trouble and is downright just being a bootlicker to Bester. She only goes against him because Sheridan forces her too. She's probably a big fan of what Bester did to Garibaldi. Brainwashing people to do whatever they're told? Then they'd be just like Lochley, except they'd still have more free will brainwashed then she does not brainwashed. The centauri liner explosion was surprising, although it makes sense that Londo has enemies who'd do that. It was cool to see Lyta confront Bester and his men. After the revelation we get this episode, Lochley's appointment on B5 finally makes some sense. Sheridan figures that with her there, he may be able to convince her and Delenn to have a threesome. Its so obviosu now. I mean, I already knew he didn't hire her for her intelligence, leadership skills or integrity, because she has none of that. He just wanted to prove that James Kirk isn't the biggest ladies man in Sci Fi (FYI, the threesome comment is a joke, so don't start posting long comments about how wrong I am about it. I shouldn't have to say I'm joking, but its better to be safe than sorry :shifty: ). G'kar being Londo's bodyguard is great. Overall, this was a good episode. Unlike bad characters in some series, Lochley isn't ruining the show. She's kind of the character you love to hate, although not at the same level as Bester, who's that way because he's a great character.
     
  11. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Premium Member

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    I think Lochley's perspective is interesting. She hasn't been through all the things the rest have, so she doesn't have the inherent dislike of Bester that the others do. Her treatment of him isn't all that different than his treatment by Sinclair et al. when he first came aboard in "Mind War".
     
  12. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I see what you mean, but it just felt different. Its not like they told us that

    His wife would die in childbirth and he'd be blinded, leading to him wandering out into the desert to die, but not actually dying and becoming the blind preacher, and returning over a decade later to still play a role

    I'm fine with some stuff, B5's just got too specific for my liking.
     
  13. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Premium Member

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    All B5 has really told you is that in 17 years, Centauri Prime will suffer a massive catastrophe which is somehow linked to the Shadow War (interesting, but not very specific); that Londo will be Emperor (which you have known since Point of No Return); that G'Kar and Londo will kill each other (which you have known since Midnight on the Firing Line); and that Sheridan and Delenn survive that encounter, which is new.

    The flash-forward scene doesn't reveal all that much new information about Londo, it just rearranges it a bit and gives it some context. It does provide some additional information about S&D. It's ironic that their first kiss from Sheridan's perspective is in that future, while for Delenn it doesn't happen until the Whitestar fleet reveal.
     
  14. JoeD80

    JoeD80 Captain Captain

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    How specific can it really be if you haven't predicted any of what actually happens to Londo in the episodes since War Without End and you're already 1/3 in to season five now?
     
  15. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, just because Londo thinks he'll be killed by G'Kar, or gets told by a "psychic" that could just be crazy that he'll be emperor, doesn't mean it will actually happen. Even then, I object more to knowing the Centauri homeworld gets trashed and he becomes the puppet of an alien with only very brief moments of control. It took any mystery out of their fate. Now, I have to worry about when Londo will stop being awesome and start being a puppet. Its not a great idea anyway, but if they had to do it that way, they could have atleast left it as a surprise.

    Londo gets killed by G'Kar, after being a puppet of an unknown alien for an unkonown amount of time (but, since the alien is already on the planet as early as late season 4, Londo's probably been a puppet from whenever he becomes emperor until his death, so it could be 15+ years of being a puppet, depending on when he becomes emperor). During that time, his home planet also gets trashed, and its Sheridan's fault. That was all shown, so, unless thats all just a fake out and we learn that as soon as Sheridan left G'kar and Londo got back up and laughed about how they tricked Sheridan into thinking he knew the future or some other trick, there isn't really another interpretation. Nothing has contradicted that, in fact the show just keeps supporting that (with the regent being possesed by the alien). Its not like it ruined the show, its just one of the very few screw ups in the shows overall story.
     
  16. Snatcher42

    Snatcher42 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    That would be awesome! :rommie:
     
  17. JoeD80

    JoeD80 Captain Captain

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    Unless you think the only interesting thing that can happen to a character is what happens at the end of their life, there were plenty of things so far that are not revealed by knowing Londo's ultimate fate, such as how he drives the Shadows and Cartagia away, or even what Londo and G'Kar's true relationship in 2278 is (which you are getting more of a glimpse of now in season five).

    The point is it's still just an end result from the year 2278, which hasn't once helped you predict what will happen episode-to-episode. And in fact there are still gaps that are not filled in yet to how Centauri Prime ends as it does.
     
  18. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Premium Member

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    Remember when Emperor Turhan visited the station?

    I wonder if JMS was trying to make a statement about an inverse correlation between power and free will.
     
  19. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think Dune was pretty specific. Very early in the first novel they outright tell you that Dr. Yueh betrays Duke Leto, causing his death, and that Paul becomes Muad'Dib and leads a jihad. Irulan's passages at the beginning of each chapter tend to contain huge spoilers. One halfway through the book is about the Emperor reflecting on his loss at the hands of Paul, years after the events of Dune.
     
  20. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, you're right. It just never bothered me in Dune. Maybe its the different format, I don't know. It was just never and issue.

    In B5, it didn't ruin to much of the modern day stuff, except when I have to worry about how long it will be until Londo is a puppet. Still, the whole future Londo stuff just ticked me off.