Farscape or Babylon 5?

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by kirk55555, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. JoeD80

    JoeD80 Captain Captain

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    They wouldn't say it for those shows, because the thing is, Babylon 5 is an *arc*; it's all tied together. The campaign in Illusion of Truth leads to some motivations for characters down the road, and ties into where the main characters are going. Voyager and TNG weren't tied together episode-to-episode in that way.
     
  2. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm not going to respond to any of the real life political stuff. I don't want to get into a discussion, because political stuff never ends well (especially since I'm a more moderate guy and end up annoying both Democrats and republicans anyway ;) ).All I'll say is that I'll admit there is stupid stuff nowadays, but that its not anywhere near as bad as B5.

    Anyway, on to the next episode I watched

    Epiphanies - Something is definately up with Garibaldi, which I already figured out. I liked Zach's interaction with Londo, followed up with Bester and the Elvis impersonators Actually, thinking back, we knew that the vorlons had saved Jack the Ripper. Could they have had Elvis, too? :rommie: G'Kar's reaction to seeing Garibaldi was great. So, an emabrgo on earth ships coming to B5. That sucks for the humans, but so many aliens use B5 that it doesn't really matter. Sure, they mention something about the dictator trying to get rid of B5's alien friends, but that will probably not be very effective. I have to say, I like Lyta much better than Talia. Talia wasn't a bad character, but I like Lyta a good deal more. Bester was great in this episode, as always. The presidents plan was probably the first plan he's had from a propaganda/fooling people perspective thats made sense. I can't believe that Bester was talking to Lyta about "moral obligation". I liked when she repulsed his mental scanning so strongly that it caused a physical reaction. It was interesting to learn that Lyta was responsible for bester not getting what he wants. Still, it might cause them more trouble in the future, Bester implied as much while talking to his frozen mistress. Seeing the allies flee was interesting. Seeing the thing with the regent after the allies fled the planet was interesting. still, it would be more effective if it was more mysterious, and I didn't know what was going to come of it :klingon:. Overall, this was a good episode. Next, I'll be watching probably my most dreaded episode of B5 ever.
     
  3. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    Good choice on preferring Lyta to Talia, I was disappointed when they repplaced Lyta after the Pilot and brought in Talia, and happy thy brought lyta back and got rid of Talia. Lyta has become Bad Ass indeed
     
  4. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That is true, but Earth's interests and those of the Shadows aren't directly opposed. There is no reason why both can't benefit.
     
  5. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Illusion of Truth - I decided that, in response to what everyone has been saying, to not fast forward at all during this episode. It was a huge mistake. Now, the first part of the episode didn't need to be skipped. When the episode was on B5, it was fine, and it was worth watching (Lennier's headbutt was pretty funny). Once the episode switched to the ISN report, I should have just stopped. I watched all of the report, from beginning to end, and it was the biggest waste of time I've had to suffer through in a TV show in a long time. It told me nothing, and it brought nothing to the show. It was just a very long, very stupid, propaganda show. I got nothing from the propaganda part except the desire to stick my head in the microwave. Overall, the first part of the episode was decent, the ISN report was just as useless as I thought. So, there you go. I didn't FF, and instead wasted a lot of time watching fake propaganda that was done very poorly (by done poorly, I mean both in and out of universe). Hopefully the propaganda stuff is mostly done with (atleast as a focus of the show). I'm excited to get to better stuff.

    Also, I just ordered Season 5 from Amazon. I still have about 14 episodes left of this season, and I'll definately get S5 before I'm done with S4.
     
  6. Jan

    Jan Commodore Commodore

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    ...is insane. --JMS
    The 'first part' was most of the episode, remember. Sadly, all too many people didn't realize the differences in sets and sound between the interviews on the station and what was broadcast on ISN. And sadly, people don't recognize similar editing tricks today.

    Jan
     
  7. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Premium Member

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    The Illusion of Truth is painful, but it's also important for a few reasons.
     
  8. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I can see the first part maybe being important, but there was nothing of worth in the overly long ISN report at all. They could have given all the info they did (Earth is trying to pretend that Sheridan is mentally unstable and influenced by aliens) in a 30 second clip. Instead, I had to sit through the worst segment in B5 so far, and probably the most pointless. I knew they were doing propaganda. I knew pretty much what they were saying. Taking up a significant part of the episode with a completely pointless ISN propaganda segment was just stupid. Also, just to be clear, when I say its painful, its not because of the fact that they're bashing characters I like. Its painful because its just awful television. Still, it can really only get better from here. Even with the decent beginning, this is easily the worst epiusode of B5 I've seen. The ISN segment was enough to give it that honor. It felt like I spent 3 hours watching the TV and just wanting to turn it off. I don't know why JMS went this route with the propaganda, but I wish he had stayed away from stuff like this. He can't write it very well, and he definately can't make it entertaining. He shopuld have just mentioned that it was happening, and maybe give one brief example. It shouldn't have become almost its own subplot, and given a whole episode.
     
  9. JoeD80

    JoeD80 Captain Captain

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    Hm well, this type of propaganda and these editing techniques exist. Sorry you don't like it, but that doesn't invalidate the reality of it. As for *why* jms wrote it - check on the background of the Hollywood black list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_blacklist). There are direct references in this episode to that situation.
     
  10. flavaflav

    flavaflav Captain Captain

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    'Illusion oh Truth' is painful, but that's the point, for good or bad. It's a dead on interpretation of modern news tv which looks to promote its own agenda. if you hate this ep, well, i think that's the point. That being said, as much as you may hate it, the ep accomplishes its job. there is also major plot progression in this ep as will be seen in the coming episodes.
     
  11. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Premium Member

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    Hopefully, we all think twice about believing everything we're shown on the news at this point.
     
  12. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well a lot of screwed up stuff exists, but it doesn't make for good television. I'll argue until I collapse from lack of food/water that even Fox News is less idiotic then ISN, and its easily the biggest example of a biased, completely useless news station that I know of (with MSNBC being the second biggest, I'm an equal opportunity hater of BS from both sides). I know it happens, but hammering the point to death in the most unsubtle way possible in a sci-fi show is just stupid. It just put the entire show on hold so JMS could rant about something. I did read on the Lurker's guide to B5 about the blacklist thing. I can't find a way to say how little I care. It doesn't answer why he made The Illusion of Truth, other then just because he was annoyed at something in the news and decided to use B5 as his personal ranting device. I'm not watching B5 to see JMS go on tangents about things he doesn't like at the expense of the story. It was the worst segment I've seen of anything on tV for a long time. Its supposed to be a good sci-Fi show, not JMS's personal soapbox.

    Anyway, the episode is over and done with, and I'll never watch that piece of s$%t again. Now, on to the next episode.

    Atonement - This episode was pretty good. The more I see of the average minbari, the more I think that they are easily as bad as the Centauri at their worst when it comes to aliens, they just don't interact with them as much. The guy challening Delenn this episode seemed like he'd be up for some of the horrible stuff the centauri did to the Narn recently. Seeing G'Kar get his new eye was cool (I'm assuming that the human looking eye was the actor's real eye). Delenn's dreaming was interesting. It was weird seeing her in full Minbari makeup again. I liked learning more about her past, including the beginning of the eath-Minbari war. Learning that she helped start the war was an interesting revelation, as was the human/minbari DNA stuff. I liked the scene at the end with Marcus and Franklin traveling, and Marcus singing (even over the credits at the end :lol:). Overall, this was a good episode.
     
  13. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Premium Member

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    Fun fact: one of the B5 telemovies takes place after the teaser of Atonement (because Zack has the black uniform) but before the end of it (because Franklin is on the station). No need to watch it right now though.
     
  14. Jan

    Jan Commodore Commodore

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    ...is insane. --JMS
    Simple. By now it should be obvious that the underlying core of the show is that it's about process. The process of how a government goes bad. The process of how one person creates change. The process of redemption. These episodes you hate so much illustrate the process of how a government can get to the point of dictatorship and complete control over the people.

    That's why.

    Jan
     
  15. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's also worth noting that all this was made in the 90's when things were (relatively) peaceful and stable. This was before 9/11 and all the hysteria that followed in it's wake, before it became obvious that certain news agencies were considerably less than objective with the facts. These days it seems old-hat, overkill even, but for back then the point really needed to be hammered home. A lot.

    Plus, like Jan says it's about the process. Without things like this you'd be scratching you head wondering how the people back on Earth could just let some xenophobic nutter do whatever he wants. This is pretty much the culmination of things that have been slipped in here and there since season one.

    Even before Santiago was knocked off there was rumblings of what was to come. Growing support for pro-human groups like HomeGuard, "loyalty tests" enforced by Psi Corps, Psi Corps endorsing then Vice President Clark in violation of their charter, the bitterness and paranoia from the Minbari War and the increased suspicion of alien collaborators (why else would they just surrender?)

    Then later comes the introduction of Nightwatch, the Ministry of Peace, the Ministry of Truth, passing laws against "sedition" among the civilian populous, creating a security scare after the incident on Ganymede, declaring martial law, bombing civilian targets on the Mars and Orion colonies. And now with this we're shown how completely the "truth" can be manipulated to re-enforce and justify everything that's going on.
     
  16. Jan

    Jan Commodore Commodore

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    ...is insane. --JMS
    As for why an episode like that was needed? Here's the text of an actual post I read on a B5 message board just the other day (posted without permission and in this case I don't care):

    Yeah...

    Jan
     
  17. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    Heh, yea, that pretty much sums it up

    Perhaps it was different for those of us who watched Babylon 5 first run, before all Government power grabs and News Channel Bias that and such aggresive Partisanship that were brought to us after 911. I personally have always enjoyed the "Newscast" episodes in Babylon 5 and appreciate how they show the growing corruption and power grabs of Clark Administration and their Propaganda (We don't have homeless on Earth, that's all been ended. oh, sure there's a few lazy people who choose to live that way... :eek:)

    I just find it interesting how these episodes can generate such a visceral reaction from someone who is too young to have lived through Politics and Media prior to 911 :shrug:
     
  18. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Thats what I'm doing right now. The fact that the propaganda is so poorly done is just making me wonder why the humans in the future are so stupid. Its amazing that they have the ability to breathe.

    I have a reaction because its bad television, and its getting rammed down my throat. I get it, humans in the future are stupid/evil/don't care and will believe everything they are told. I can accept that. Its not like its even that unique in Science fiction (oh, that nice chancellor dressed in black just declared that we're an empire now? That seems like a good idea that we should go along with). Its the fact that it keeps getting said, and worst every time. If they would stop spending so much time making me watch propaganda that a 3 year old could see through, I could accept it a lot easier. Showing me examples of what is fooling people just makes me unable to accept that so many people would believe this. I don't care about the problems with real life media, its not a interesting topic, especially not when its being taken to idiotic extremes on a TV show. All it does is derail the show and annoy me. I know people usually say show, don't tell, but when they're this bad at the showing, they should probably just tell me about the existence of propaganda. Heck, even if they could have done it better it would still be fairly pointless and have taken up WAY too much time, but atleast it wouldn't make me want to break the TV.
     
  19. Jan

    Jan Commodore Commodore

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    ...is insane. --JMS
    It's a fine line they had to follow. In at least one instance coming up in the future, a point was made completely clear, very extensively in an episode you've seen. And yet from fan reaction, you'd have thought that it was never mentioned and came out of the blue when something happens further down the line. I don't know if JMS ever said why he decided against 'Previously on B5' segments except in a few cases, but perhaps if that had been a part of the show, reminders wouldn't have been felt to be necessary.

    Jan
     
  20. Professor Zoom

    Professor Zoom Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You are missing the point. It's not the humans in the FUTURE are stupid/evil/don't care, it's that humans in the PRESENT are stupid/evil/don't care and maybe should pay attention to how they are being manipulated NOW.

    Science Fiction isn't always about the people of the future, it's a way of talking about the present.