Farscape or Babylon 5?

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by kirk55555, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    I said out, dammit!
    And Now for a Word was basically a plot review for new viewers. I showed it to some friends who hadn't seen the show yet, and they eventually became B5 addicts too. That a review episode also featured a major turning point is just... well, that's joe for ya! :)
     
  2. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Knives - It was cool to see the actor who played Carter's Dad in Stargate SG-1 appear in this episode. I always liked his character in Stargate. I don't have too much to say about this episode. Londo was great, as always. His story in this episode was done well. The resolution was good, and another example of Londo's actions coming back to haunt him. The Sheridan story was weird, but entertaining. It was interesting to have B4 brought up again. Overall, this was a good episode.
     
  3. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Knives was originally intended to air before In the Shadow of Za'Ha'Dum, but was late because of the time needed to do CGI work.
     
  4. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Confessions and Lamentations - This was a good episode. Aliens bring a mysterious plague onto B5, and the doctor has to try to find a cure. The disease and the reason why it was spreading, along with the alien government trying to ignore it, was interesting. The aliens letting the superstition that the disease only effects immoral people stop them from really acknowledging it or trying to cure it was unusual, and definately not very logical (not that an alien race has to be logical, or in this case have any common sense). I do wonder why the medical staff of a space station don't have some kinbd of biohazard suit to infect contamination. That stuff exists in real life, and it could atleast have helped the doctors not catch the disease, if it had turned out to effect many species. If they do have them, then they weren't mentioned or shown this episode. The alien kid was annoying, like most child actors are. I half expected the ending on B5, where the aliens would all die, leaving Delenn and her aide to be the only survivors. I didn't expect the whole civilization to die, basically because they were so stupid they refused to believe that the disease was just a disease, and insisted that it only infected immoral people. This was a good episode, with an interesting ending.

    Also, I only have 4 episode left, but I ordered season 3 today, so in a week or two I'll have the next season :bolian: I'm definately enjoying this show a lot (I'd say right now its #5 of my favorite Sci Fi series, after: ST, SW, Firefly and SG1), and want to see more.
     
  5. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Divided Loyalties - This episode was very good. The customised newspaper machine was interesting, as was the story of the telepath and Kosh (I guess its the plot of The Gathering, which I haven't seen). i knew some of it just from dialog during the first season, but it was interesting to learn more. This episode has another evil Psi Corp thing, sleeper agents. does Psi Corp do anything except sit around thinking of new ways to be evil? :cardie: Also, were Talia and Ivanova sleeping together? It's implied (unless I'm just completely clueless), but not said outright. I had guessed Ivanova's secret, but it was still an interesting reveal. Garibaldi being a jerk during the scans was funny. Sheridan was really acting weird during the scans, to the point were he'd probably make the random people suspicious. He calls in a bunch of people, but then just says one sentence to them, and then dismisses them? There must have been some interesting conversations about Sheridan's mental health the next few days :lol:

    The reveal that Talia was the sleeper was kind of unexpected, although I have the vague feeling that I had been spoilered about her going evil when I first started watching B5, then forgot about it. Her evil personality is annoying, but I'm hoping to see her get fixed eventually. Also, why are they letting her go? She has info that could screw over people. Its harsh, but since they think they can't fix her (wether they can or not will probably be brought up later), then maybe they should arrange for her to have an accident or dissappear. Either throw her out of an airlock, or (if you really don't want to kill her, even if it would protect people) find somewhere in the large parts of B5 people don't use to lock her up. It would be annoying, but they could probably do it without anyone finding her. Letting her go and not doing anything about her seems stupid. Its not her fault she's a sleeper, but sometimes bad things happen, something which the B5 people already know. Still, I really enjoyed this episode.
     
  6. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    Yes, Ivanova and Talia had a relationship.

    Talia's actress, became a problem and wanted to be "The Star", so, this was her Swan Song, she is no longer on the show. If you remember back to the crazy episode where the Human VCR was recording Talia's reactions on a crystal for Kosh (When she examining the Kille's mind), and Kosh said "For Later" (or something close to that), the intention was to use that crystal to "fix" Talia, but, this is one of the very few plot points that got dropped in Babylon 5, since real world actress wanted to be "The Star" or to be released.

    The Red Head, Lyta, indeed was featured in The Gathering, but, The Studio wanted someone sexier, so, the part of Talia was written, and Lyta was removed from the canvas afer The Gathering
     
  7. Jan

    Jan Commodore Commodore

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    ...is insane. --JMS
    I've never been sure about that 'fix' part at all. None of the images that Talia flashed on were at all positive. I've always wondered if it might not have been intended as a weapon instead. I'd hoped that JMS would clarify it in the script book intro for this episode but it didn't come up.

    Jan
     
  8. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    Thanks for the correction Jan, I was under the impression JMS had confirmed it?
     
  9. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It isn't that Pat was insufficiently sexy, it's that she had other obligations. Remember, most pilots fail, and B5 wasn't picked up until more than a year after the Gathering was filmed. She didn't have a contractual guarantee so she took other work and wasn't able to come back for the first season or most of the second. Incidentally, she just gave birth six weeks before this episode was filmed.


    JMS originally intended Takashima to be the mole. When her actress didn't come back for the series, JMS has to switch it to Tallia. It was originally intended that Tallia have an opening to come back, the recording of her emotions. But Andrea Thompson didn't want to return and Pat Tallman was available again, so it worked out the way it did.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2013
  10. Jan

    Jan Commodore Commodore

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    ...is insane. --JMS
    JMS made it clear in the script books and Pat expanded on it in her book (Pleasure Thresholds) that the studio flat out didn't want her for a number of reasons (more stunt than acting credits, and possibly bad feelings from an exec who tried to casting couch her) and ensured it by a too-low contract offer. When she passed on the offer, JMS was away and couldn't try to re-open negotiations.

    Jan
     
  11. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I was unaware of that. Thanks.

    Hypothetically, yes. The problem with the Psi-Corps is that it was created to brutally oppress telepaths because people hated and feared them but the releaties of psychic combat mean that all of its agents must be telepaths. You can see how this is problematic.

    EarthGov's intent was that the Psicops would be their equivalent of the Jewish kapos and Ghetto Police in Nazi Germany, collaborators who fuck over and murder their own people in exchange for preferential treatment.

    What actually happened is that the Psi Corps became a nation unto itself, with it's own unique culture, technically under the authority of EarthGov but in reality separate from Earth culture and with no real loyalty to mundane humanity.

    The law that Telepaths have to take drugs that fuck them over and lead or suicide, join the Psi-Corps, or go to prison forever was passed by EarthGov, not the Psi-Corps. In human space, Telepaths aren't even second class citizens. Their status is somewhere between that of blacks in apartheid South Africa and Jews in Nazi Germany. Those who refuse to bow to the system are either imprisoned for life or just murdered and the mundanes really don't give a shit because they're scared of the telepaths. It's like being a mutant in Marvel only worse.

    People like Bester are acting wildly outside the law to create what they believe to be a better world for telepaths. That requires doing some shady and unethical stuff, but they genuinely believe that the goal of freeing telepaths from mundane oppression (and oppressing mundanes in turn) is totally worth the cost.
    In that way, the Psi-Corps and the telepath Underground Railroad are very similar. The difference is that the Psi-Corps wants to take over the system from within while the Underground Railroad just wants to get away from it.
     
  12. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, I get what they were going for, and they definately succeeded with what they wanted Psi Corps to be.

    Also, I forgot to mention, but Divided Loyalties had another mysterious Kosh moment, because it wouldn't be an episode of B5 unless there was a mysterious Kosh moment :lol: I don't have any problem with stuff like that, its just kind of funny.

    So, Talia is gone. It felt like they were setting up a way for her to come back (and they apparently were), its too bad she never came back. Still, while I didn't dislike her, I don't think the show will be effected by her not returning, sohe only showed up once every 5-6 episodes anyway.
     
  13. JoeD80

    JoeD80 Captain Captain

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    Lyta was in the script for "Midnight on the Firing Line." When the contract issues came up as noted by Jan above, the name Lyta was re-arranged and futzed a bit to come up with the name Talia.
     
  14. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    I said out, dammit!
    Someone sexier than Pat Tallman? Phsaw!

    I remember Area's brief tenure on CNN when she decided to become a news anchor instead of an actress. Whatever happened to her, anyway?
     
  15. flavaflav

    flavaflav Captain Captain

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    I remember that! I actually saw her on CNN before I ever watched B5. I rememebr flipping through channels and when i clicked on CNN and saw this dame I was suprised CNN had a decent looking anchor on so I watched. She was horrible though. She seemed really baked. Always flubbing lines and on the verge of cracking up during every newcast. That was great tv.
     
  16. Jan

    Jan Commodore Commodore

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    ...is insane. --JMS
    I think she's mainly in real estate now. And she'll be part of the big B5 reunion at Phoenix Comicon.

    Jan
     
  17. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Moderator

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    She was briefly on 24 one year, season 4 I think?
     
  18. Aeon

    Aeon Commander Red Shirt

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    Season three and yeah, the role was very brief.
     
  19. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Long, Twilight Struggle - I really liked this episode. The centauri are very vicious. The fact that they used Mass Drivers, an outlawed weapon, seems like a dangerous decision. We learn that the humans, Minbari and Vorlons protest them using it. You'd think thast the Centauri aren't so overconfident that they'd want to risk making those three species angry. Fighting humans/Minbari would probably be different than fighting Narn. Its interesting to see how Londo has been reacting to events. It seems to have gone farther than he ever thought it would. Draal reappearing was interesting, although he was annoyingly melodramatic at times. The Shadows just demolished the Narn, and even prevented them from jumping away. They would (and most likely will) be dangerous opponents for the othert races. Londo watching the attack on the narn homeworld was a very good scene. The centari's terms were bad, probably worse than I thought they'd be (and arresting the leadership for "war crimes", when the centauri were the ones that used banned weapons, was a cheap shot). The scene in the council chambers at the end was very powerful, especially G'Kar's speech at the end. I'm glad G'Kar is getting Sanctuary. Overall, this was an amazing episode. There were great character moments, very memorable scenes, and an overall plot that was very good.
     
  20. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, all I've ever been able to discern is that Kosh probably made the recording because he knew about Control. I've never been able to substantiate claims that the intent was to "fix" her later. It may be a logical surmise (especially in hindsight), but as far as I can tell it's just fan speculation.

    My personal take is that he was somehow mapping out the extent of her reprogramming so he'd be in a better position to go after the sleeper personality in the future, if it ever became a threat.

    What's always bothered me is that they went and brought up Talia's encounter with Abbut and yet I don't think it's never mentioned what--if anything--Garibaldi got out of Kosh. Perhaps it was a trap-door within a trap-door, just in case Talia every needed to be brought back after all?
    Not quite right. Psi Corps came into existence as much to protect telepaths from mundanes as the other way around. When teeps were first discovered there was a wave of mass panic, lynchings and witch hunts brought on by the paranoia that "anyone" could secretly be a telepath. There was also a number of crimes committed by telepaths since, after all, telepaths are ultimately just people from all walks of life.

    Of course it's never that simple and you really have to read all the Psi Corps novels to get exactly what's going on, the history of how things came to be. How the organisation has changed hands over the last century and how each Director has used to corps to advance their own personal agenda, usually co-opting and re-purposing the projects started by their predecessors.

    In a nutshell though, there's more than one faction working within Psi Corps. One the one hand you have Bester's faction who represent the "old guard" within the Corps who are (in the short term) mostly concerned with protecting telepaths from the mundanes and (in the long term) securing dominance over said inferior masses.

    The other faction is the one actually behind some of the nastier stuff we've seen and are mostly interested into using telepaths as tools and weapons with the intent to advance humanity over the other races. They're aligned with certain parties (mostly non-teeps) within EarthGov, Earthforce, at least one mega-corporation and another party that I shan't name.

    Neither side are what you'd call "the good guys" or even "the bad guys". They're just two factions, each with their own agendas and equally valid reasons.

    Ultimately, from the outside, the Psi Corps is a way to make telepaths appear non-threatening. This is good for the government since it promotes stability and keeps a potential resource at their disposal (in theory) and it's "good" for telepaths because it gives them a place where they can be themselves among others like them (again, in theory...)

    Easily one of the best and most memorable episodes of the whole show...and yet the best is yet to come. ;)

    Regarding the use of mass drivers; while it is a dangerous move, it's tempered by the knowledge that none of the other races are likely to do anything about it beyond official protests and maybe some trade sanctions. Neither Earth nor Minbar are in any kind of mood for another war. Not counting the Vorlons, the Minbari are the only ones that have the technology to go toe-to-toe with the Centauri. Don't let the silly haircuts fool you, they have some serious hardware on their side and are very practiced at conquest.

    Politically; the Minbari have always essentially been isolationists. They did nothing while the Dilgar rampaged through the Non-Alligned worlds, conquering, enslaving and committing all kinds of atrocities, up-to and including genocide--to say nothing of the last time the Centauri decided to expand their Empire. Indeed, they only went after Earth in retaliation to what they considered an unprovoked attack.

    Also the Narn Regime hasn't exactly made a lot of friends over the years. Yes they supplied Earth with advanced weapons during the Minbari War, but that was hardly altruistic and since then they haven't hesitated to take any opportunity for their own advantage. Bottom line, although all civilized worlds may cry out in outrage over such a flagrant treaty violation, none of them are about to stick their necks out for the sake of the Narn, even if they were in a position to do so.

    It'd be like if China nuked Iran. There'd be a lot of harsh words and sanctions from the U.N., some sabre rattling and posturing from Russia, the U.S. and the other NATO countries, but I doubt anyone would be willing to invade Beijing over it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2013