Fair Haven and Janeway's "moral dilemma"

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by sonak, Apr 22, 2014.

  1. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Fair Haven is a terrible episode. I've noticed in various internet reviews that there's a recurring theme that the entire "dilemma" surrounding Janeway and use of the holodeck is ridiculous. Given the 24th century's supposedly liberal attitudes on sex and sexuality and what we've seen on DS9 of holosuite use, why is it even an issue that Janeway would want to have sex with a hologram? Are we supposed to believe that it's an issue because she's a captain or because she's a female captain? Either way it's a stupid idea for the episode.
     
  2. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    As far as I can tell, the problem with the episode is the Fair Haven program itself - it's just one big Irish stereotype.

    The fact that Janeway uses the program, is not in itself harmful, although the question of creating a holo-boyfriend is a bit weird when she could have just as easily pursued any member of the actual crew, up to and including Chakotay. (Starfleet has absolutely no rule against, or objection to, fraternization among the crew, as long as it's consensual and doesn't get in the way of official duties.)
     
  3. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    I was terribly disappointed by "Fair Haven" and "Spirit Folk" due to the stereotypes. It's the kind of stuff Colm Meaney would have refused to do on DS9, yet TPTB evidently thought it was fine to do on Voyager.

    I'm not even Irish.
     
  4. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    ^I'm not Irish and it cringeworthy sterotypes that make them bad episodes.
     
  5. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The holodeck is the size of a 8 to 10 tennis courts... They have to manipulating energy fields so that sound doesn't travel further than they want it to, that 30 to forty people can be in there observing conflicting perspectives without undue overlappence... Or was Janeway so quiet during sex with her light bulb that she didn't have to clear the deck?

    Sooner or later, if the holodeck is flushed of all it's users continuously and regularily almost instantly after Janway leaves that pub with her fancy man, the crew is going to figure out that the Captain needs a discretionary area of 40 feet in every direction from where she is being drilled to still feel like a lady.
     
  6. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    yeah, the holodeck rules don't make tons of sense when it comes to simulations of entire towns where you've got 30-40 real people inside what is supposed to be not that big of a place.
     
  7. Captain Kathryn

    Captain Kathryn Commodore Commodore

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    Now, I agree Janeway needed to eventually get it on with someone. They used the excuse that she "couldn't do it" with a member of her crew because everyone is her subordinate. I get it. But having Janeway go to those lengths seemed a little bit out of character.

    As for moral dilemma, I am not sure if that is really what it was.

    That said, being of Irish descent, the stereotypes were off the chain. And to the person who mentioned Colm Meaney, yes the leprechaun was changed to Rumpelstiltskin because of that reason.
     
  8. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Mulgrew was forcing her 20th century squeamishness onto a postpostpostpostmodern 24th century fox.

    Mulgrew kept the Captain chaste for a very long time, she fought Berman hard, and this was the blow back from finally finding a romantic script that she approved of... If Mulgrew hadn't been so difficult, so afraid of being slutshamed by the 20th century audiences, the producers would have had Janeway making out with 4 or 5 different guest stars each season straight out of the gate.

    Just think about some episodes that could have been solved with Janeway kissing the bad guy.

    YES!

    EXACTLY!
     
  9. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    this is pretty much what I meant. The "dilemma" didn't seem to rise out of the context of the CHARACTER or the time period it was set in, it seemed to arise out of Mulgrew and the writers' ridiculous fears of how the audience would see it.


    Think about it-150 people, away from their loved ones for years, access to the holodeck....


    you really think they're just doing historical scenarios? Why Janeway would think her crew would care if she was engaging in holo-sex frequently is beyond me.
     
  10. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Logs are kept of holodeck activity.

    Logs are kept of Universal Translator use, and everything goes through the universal translator, and massive red flag must be tripped if someone turns off the universal translator in any given room.

    Kes and Neelix were a peep show for anyone with a high enough security clearance for the first three years.

    After Seska was found to be a double agent, Tuvok would have had to have gone through the security logs relevant to Seska, Holodeck logs relevant to Seska, and universal translator logs relevant to Seska looking for evidence of associates, confidants and anyone else she had been manipulating with above average sex.

    Jonas it seems knew how to cover his tracks quite well.
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Oh.

    Picard was a prude first.

    He transferred his girlfriend he made on the ship (in Lessons) because he didn't want to order her to her death again... Which in the 20th century is something that could get him fired and why there are rules against superiors dating subordinates because power can be abused even with the best of intentions.

    And when Vash showed up for a dirty weekend in Q-Pid, she discovered that her dirty old man considered the Enterprise a no-sex zone that he wasn't going to besmirch with his human weakness and juices.

    So Janeway's behaviour is not atypical... Even though I am comparing her to a person (Picard is a man.) twice her age.
     
  12. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, you can't have romance with a direct subordinate without the power gradient becoming an issue.

    If you're isolated in space I'm all for using the holodeck for self-gratification, so long as you're totally honest with yourself about what it is.

    There is, however, the risk that the holodeck loses power while she is in the throes. That would be kind of awkward.

    Even more ridiculous than the problems with stereotypes is the idea that they would go to absurd, self destructive lengths to keep it continuously running. Even Bashir would have shut off his holo-bromance Vic Fontaine if the power expenditure was becoming a threat to the station.
     
  13. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think Janeway felt it was somewhat out of character which is why she had qualms about some aspects of it, possibly it's the first time she'd included sex with her regular use of the holodeck. She'd bonded with holograms before but it had been the same way you might bond with an MMO character of your creation or an NPC in a game who you really like interacting with. Leonardo etc.. adding the sex shifted it to another level for her and that's what threw her.

    I don't think she was going to "great lengths" doing it though. I think she saw it as a normal, something to encourage unpartnered crew members to engage in given their circumstances in the DQ. Eventually when everyone else is doing something your personal squeamishness about it breaks down, why not give it a whirl? It's not like giving Chak a whirl where you have to look at him every day afterwards for seventy years, you just walk away and end program.

    So she tried it. And she couldn't quite handle it. And in the end she was okay about that.
     
  14. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What we need is NuTrek with a male captain who welcomes Q's booty calls and covers it up with mumblings about diplomatic relations.
     
  15. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It certainly wouldn't have hurt the show to have a few recurring civilian characters around for Janeway to think about turning to for human company.
     
  16. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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  17. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    All she had to do was ask Neelix for a little special something for dessert.
     
  18. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    I've nothing to add to the thread, I'm just having visions of Red Dwarf's handy VR groinal attachment.
     
  19. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    There is a naked man in that second link. Huh.

    Oh I just want some trash in my Trek for once, and I don't mean just a really bad episode.
     
  20. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Most men who do not wear clothes are naked.

    I'm not planning on being spoiled, so I apologise for not warning you of the hopelessly graphic content that I was not aware of.

    And I don't really have to be spoiled because the book is about 10 hours away from being available.