'Extreme Measures' really bugged me

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by Roboturner913, Aug 11, 2013.

  1. Roboturner913

    Roboturner913 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Considering all of Bashir's high-minded talk about how the ends don't justify the means and how 31 needs to be destroyed, his actions are pretty objectionable.

    He blatantly lies to Starfleet Command, he's indirectly responsible for Sloan's death, and then he forces his way into Sloan's mind - a situation we've seen compared to rape in numerous other episodes.

    It's not even that so much that bothers me. It's that he doesn't seem to understand what he has done. This was basically his "In the Pale Moonlight." But does he have regrets? No. He plays darts and drinks with O'Brien while patting himself on the back for his ingenuity.

    Pretty disturbing if you ask me.
     
  2. DS9forever

    DS9forever Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, the writers admitted it is the one episode of the Final Chapter that didn't work. But doesn't Sloan call out Bashir about what Bashir is doing?
     
  3. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Bashir basically became what he hated, what Sloan wanted, in this episode. A man who will put all moral considerations aside to do what needs doing.
     
  4. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Bashir did what needed to be done to prevent genocide. I agree it's his In The Pale Moonlight.
     
  5. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, the "mind rape" again. It's an absolutely inept analogy.


    They were looking for information, they were not attempting to sexually dominate him.
     
  6. Roboturner913

    Roboturner913 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    It is not an "absolutely inept analogy" at all. It is still "absolutely" an invasion, whether there is a sexual element or not. There's a reason Bashir had to procure highly illegal devices to pull it off in the first place.
     
  7. LobsterAfternoon

    LobsterAfternoon Commander Red Shirt

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    I think we've seen that a lot of Bashir's experiences during the DS9 years, especially the stuff with 31 and Garak, were about a naive and cocky guy becoming seasoned. Was Extreme Measures squeaky clean morality? Definitely not. But it was certainly a more defensible act than what we've seen 31 do. Bashir is a duly authorized civil servant, he reported what he was doing to his CO, he undertook the dirty deed to save his friend and prevent a genocide, and he gave Sloan the opportunity to simply give him what he wanted.
     
  8. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    It's too bad Martok couldn't supply one of those Klingon mindsifters that Kor threatened Kirk with in "Errand of Mercy". I always wondered why they didn't rate a mention in TNG. Instead, the Romulans seemed to have something that did the same thing.
     
  9. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well the Romulan mind probes, which they did use in this ep, seem to be better as the victim survives the process. Kor said the mind sifters would've left him as a vegetable.
     
  10. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Bashir was so intent on gaining the cure, I don't think he would have cared if a mindsifter left Sloan a vegetable or not. Though I suspect the writers completely forgot about the mindsifter.
     
  11. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I just always assumed the Romulan device, which does the same thing without crippling the victim, was more efficient and that's why Bashir used them.
     
  12. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In a universe where telepaths exists, reading someone's mind isn't an invasion.
     
  13. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    ^Yes it is. Just because telepaths exists doesn't automatically give them the right to invade someones mind.
     
  14. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Who defines that right, when it's normal in their society?
     
  15. Jono

    Jono Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The issue would be that species like Betazoids can't help but read your thoughts, you're more or less broadcasting them as if you had spoken the thoughts out loud. Of course it's a different matter with Bashir and say Spock in STVI as they imposed their will on the minds of others. They had a choice and did what they did against the will of the other person, I'd say that would be classed as an "invasion".
     
  16. Tosk

    Tosk Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Maybe, but if the mind-reading is done in a non-damaging way, it's a hard call to make.

    Which of these is worse?

    *Reading your mind.
    *Reading your diary and then punching you in the stomach.

    ;)
     
  17. doctorfoto

    doctorfoto Commodore Commodore

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    I don't know, but if you think about it, Betazoids and other full telepaths would probably be among the most ostracized species in the quadrant. No one would want to be around them!
     
  18. The Emissary

    The Emissary Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Honestly? I'm more disturbed by Bashir wiping Kurn's mind. Not only did he effectively "kill" Kurn, but he did it without his consent and he didn't seem to bat an eye. To me that was one of the worst out of character moments for Bashir. A Starfleet doctor engaging in that?

    At least with Sloan, it came out of desperation to save his friend - Odo. He also didn't intend to kill Sloan (although mental rape is not that much "nicer"). I do agree it is odd that Bashir felt so non-chalant at the end. He seemed to be just enjoying the "high" that he got from helping his friend and saving his life.

    You are right though that this episode showed that Section 31 was right. Bashir had the nerve to thumb his nose at the notion of the ends justify the means and yet he engaged in that mindset when he needed to save Odo. Later on, his little gamble here led, indirectly, to the end of the Dominion War. I almost wonder if that was his first step to a much darker view on things...

    Unfortunately it happened so close to the end of the show that we never got to any real fall out from Bashir on what he had done.