Extent of V'Ger's journey

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Noddy, Sep 23, 2013.

  1. Noddy

    Noddy Captain

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    In TMP, when Spock is exploring the interior of V'Ger, he sees images of planets and stars and galaxies, which he theorizes to be representations of V'Ger's journey. Later on he states that V'Ger's knowledge has reached the limits of the universe itself. But I was wondering, did V'Ger really travel throughout the entire universe, or was a lot of its knowledge given to it by the machine race which initially found and upgraded it?
     
  2. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    The references in the film are contradictory. At one point, Kirk says V'Ger came from the other side of the galaxy -- which is one piece of "evidence" that some people use to support the absurd notion that V'Ger was created by, or created, the Borg. But Kirk's information is thirdhand at best. I'd take the evidence from Spock's spacewalk as more authoritative.

    In my novel Ex Machina, I asserted that Voyager 6 had been thrown not only across huge distances of space, but thousands of years back in time, allowing time for the intergalactic journey over which V'Ger evolved and grew until it had reached the limits of knowledge on this plane of existence. I don't think it could've achieved that level in just three centuries of crossing a single galaxy. How could it have run out of things to learn about the universe if it had only seen one galaxy? (The more recent novel Cold Equations: The Body Electric by David Mack uses the same assumptions about V'Ger's origins, since Dave wanted to stay consistent with what I'd done.)
     
  3. Scout101

    Scout101 Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, think you really need that to make any of that work. Our current Voyager just got out of the solar system, seems like it's not going to become a god anytime soon, nor run out of things to learn...
     
  4. Noddy

    Noddy Captain

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    All the information V'Ger possessed about the universe need not have been discovered directly by it though. As advanced as the machine civilization that found it was, I'd imagine they'd done plenty of exploring themselves, so perhaps they shared a lot of their knowledge with V'Ger before sending it off on its way.
     
  5. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^But that wasn't the impression given by the Spock Walk sequence. It implied that what we were seeing was stuff that V'Ger had directly imaged and/or digitized.
     
  6. Workbee

    Workbee Commander Red Shirt

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    Didn't Spock at one point in the space walk sequence observe "whole galaxies" having been digitized? Its been awhile since I watched TMP so I might be misremembering. If this is true, this greatly expands the scope of V'Ger's travels.
     
  7. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^Yes, that's why I reject Kirk's line that V'Ger only came from the other side of the galaxy. Spock's line was: "I am seeing images of planets, moons, stars, whole galaxies all stored in here, recorded. It could be a record of V'Ger's entire journey."
     
  8. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    DECKER: Voyager VI ...disappeared into what they used to call a black hole.
    KIRK: It must have emerged sometime on the far side of the Galaxy and fell into the machine's planet's gravitational field.
    SPOCK: The machine inhabiters found it to be one of their own kind, primitive yet kindred. They discovered its simple twentieth-century programming. Collect all data possible.
    DECKER: Learn all that is learnable. Return that information to its Creator.
    SPOCK (OC): Precisely, Mister Decker, the machines interpreted it literally.
    SPOCK: They built this entire vessel so that Voyager could fulfil it's programming.
    KIRK: And on its journey back it amassed so much knowledge, it achieved consciousness itself. It became a living thing.

    Spock merely speculated it "could" be a record of V'Ger's journey, but alternately the "machines" could have provided V'Ger with part of their knowledge, too.

    Question: Back in the 1970's, did we mistake "wormholes" for "black holes"? ;)

    Bob
     
  9. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    What are they calling it now? And why isn't he using the term all his fellow people use for it?
     
  10. Shazam!

    Shazam! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think they still call black holes black holes but some black holes were probably reclassified as wormholes.

    Why they didn't just say wormhole though is anyone's guess unless they thought it important to make the distinction between an ex-black hole wormhole and a standard wormhole...
     
  11. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Just another example of Trek using the dialogue to remind us it's the future... as if the starships and technology wasn't enough reminder.
     
  12. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, since they run into a wormhole earlier in the film I could see them wanting to make a distinction...
     
  13. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Perhaps V'Ger's backwards time travel should be "billions," and not "thousands."

    :)
     
  14. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^Two words: warp drive.
     
  15. xvicente

    xvicente Captain Captain

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    With apologies for mentioning the possibility of the Borg connection (some people seem to dislike it much), when we met VGer it used to store data patterns ("assimilate"?) of the lifeforms and planets he encountered, possibly absorving their knowledge. That would really speed up the process (of learning everything).
     
  16. Chemahkuu

    Chemahkuu Admiral Admiral

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    V'ger comes across as incredibly old and having travelled a portion of the universe similar to Destiny in SG:U.

    Whatever Voyager 6 fell into, may not even have been a wormhole, but some strange multigalactic or universe spanning event Starfleet has barely any understanding of.
     
  17. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    Perhaps it is a lack of clarity on the part of the filmmakers but the really cool electric lite-brite planet Spock first passes over when discarding his thruster thingie was intended to be the machine planet where vger was repaired (this is made pretty clear in interviews with Trumbull and I think Greg Jein at or shortly after the film's release ... I even remember it was built by a guy named Joe Garlington.)

    It's inclusion here would mean what, that vger digitized/zapped his re-builder before booking out to find his creator? I don't see that as terribly likely, which suggests this is as stated in the film, an imaging system displaying a record of its travels, which just happens to include stuff it zapped (unless it actually digitized 'whole galaxies' or even whole star systems, which seems like overkill.)
     
  18. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^Two words: enormous universe.
     
  19. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Sounds like we need to start a "V'Ger vs. the Borg: who would win?" thread...
     
  20. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Which is tantamount to a "The Borg vs. Hammurabi: who would win?" thread. Like I keep saying, V'Ger's technology is immensely beyond the Borg's.