Excelsior Technical Manual - Revived!

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Praetor, Mar 23, 2009.

  1. Nightowl1701

    Nightowl1701 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Crazy Eddie: Yeah, but that's Warp 10 on the old 'previously utilized cubed warp scale,' right? So something on the order of Warp 8-9 on the Eugene Wesley scale. It can be reconciled.
     
  2. Workbee

    Workbee Commander Red Shirt

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    The thing I don't understand is why they had to go with "infinite speed" for warp 10. Why not just make it approach an infinite energy requirement, but have a finite speed (sort of like the speed of light does). Especially considering that traveling at this infinite speed in threshold somehow kept them in the Delta Quadrant. What the heck was that in Where No Man Has Gone before then? Infinity plus a few? Very strange definition of infinity here. Unless we are to believe that they somehow lapped the universe...an infinite number of times and somehow by pure chance ended up back at the same galaxy, relatively close to their starting location, which is even more absurd. Even if it wasn't a bad episode, the depiction of Transwarp was so self-contradictory that it is difficult to take much away from it. Clearly they have a misunderstanding of what infinite really means. Since it is clear the creators didn't understand the concept of infinite speed, I see no reason that we have to definition of warp ten. They weren't traveling infinite speed, so this episode essentially tells us, contrary to the characters assertions, that warp ten is a finite speed.

    OK -- I'll get off my soapbox now :p
     
  3. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    I had the same thought with the "leaving point A" and "popping back at point B" description.

    However, I did like the qualification of "apparent" infinite speed over "actual" infinite, which never made any sense. However, I can see how Neelix got confused ;)
     
  4. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This whole transwarp topic has sent me back and forth. A lot.

    A great point, which I might mitigate by further discussing some test vehicles and depending which way I go with transwarp it might be more believable.

    Now the notion that the "transwarp barrier" can never be broken is actually maybe the best way of rationalizing this that I've yet heard. Then we just pretend "Threshold" played out... differently. :rommie:

    Dude, you're awesome. This is all gold. Let the rewrites commence. :rommie:

    As Nightowl noted, the scale shift was about to take place but I think your misunderstanding indicates I haven't adequately explained that. I'll work on that. And I meant to include the fractional thing too. Oopsy. I'll work that in the next draft.

    Well, I tried to make it make some degree of sense by making it a jump drive... I actually didn't think it would work like the IID. But I think it's just not working.

    No no, it's a good soapbox. :rommie:

    Thank you sir.

    I think overall I need less Braga science and more Sternbach science. Stand by for a re-revised chapter two, folks.
     
  5. trekkier

    trekkier Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I just (re)read this entire thread...amazing work Praetor! Cant wait to read more!
     
  6. Nob Akimoto

    Nob Akimoto Captain Captain

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    On the subject of transwarp and all sorts of other warp, I wonder if the whole "discovery of peak transition thresholds" is one of those results, regardless of Excelsior's success either way, that was opened up by her trial runs. Putting Treshold in its shameful little corner for the moment, everything else seems to suggest "warp 10" is more an energy consumption curve problem, where you can keep piling on power, but you can never actually get to another transition threshold beyond it. Perhaps at some point there's another threshold to break that gets you into further subspace domains (as posited by many, though I think the strongest proponent for that is Graham Kennedy at DITL), but that Federation technology and materials science just aren't there yet.

    Excelsior perhaps even broke some thresholds before, perhaps being the first ship to break past the warp 8 (TNG scale) treshold and allow cruising at much higher efficiency in that range.
     
  7. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Thanks, trekkler. I've been giving the transwarp chapter time to simmer in my noggin while I work on the cross sections, but I reckon it's about time to pick it back up.

    Nob, I like your notion. I've been thinking that I like CrazyEddie's idea that the basic concept was a gleam in a warp theorist's eyes for a while before the actual development project, but impractical due to power and equipment requirements. To my mind, getting away from the overt notion of a jump drive, I think I'll redefine transwarp as being a logical theoretical extension of warp; whereas warp drive distorts space to negate the laws of physics, transwarp would completely negate the laws of physics in our universe by completely shifting the ship into subspace for a duration, which would explain the conduits.

    I had previously thought that the new warp thresholds would lead to the innovations in transwarp, but I think you're suggesting the opposite, and I do think I like that more.
     
  8. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the writers in Star Trek III were thinking about when they invented the concept of transwarp? I mean, did it have a backstory in the writer's bible or in the novelization, or was it just a throw-away term that served no other purpose than to imply it was faster than standard warp? If so, it may be worth a look to get some kind of a start in canonical foundation.
     
  9. Unicron

    Unicron Continuity Spackle Moderator

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    I think initially it was only a throwaway source to make the Excelsior seem like a considerable leap up in technology, but several contemporary sources (Mr. Scott's Guide and the FASA RPG) had it as an experimental combination between the warp nacelles and the transporter, based on the dimensional interphase from "Tholian Web." IIRC, the FASA Starship Construction Manual also describes transwarp as being a threshold issue, but I'd have to look at mine to see exactly what it says.
     
  10. Egger

    Egger Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Whereas the dimensional interphase based transwarp would support it being a kind of jump drive I think, when talking about a conduit like transwarp the wormhole in TMP always pops into my mind. Maybe the transwarp drive was developed afterwards and simply tries to reproduce that accident in a controlled manner.
     
  11. Unicron

    Unicron Continuity Spackle Moderator

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    That's more or less how it's theorized to work in those sources, with the possible benefit that traveling through this artificial interphase allows for traveling a longer range with no perceptible passage of time compared to normal warp. Not too unlike how hyperspace works in B5.
     
  12. OpenMaw

    OpenMaw Captain Captain

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    "So we heard you like warp drive and put more warp drive in your warp drive so you can warp drive while you warp drive." - Transwarp Theoretician.


    :lol:
     
  13. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Hehe. :rommie:

    Still working on a chapter rewrite for transwarp. It's pretty drastic. I hope I'll have something ready for primetime in the next couple of days. :)
     
  14. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Alright, I've done some rewriting on the first few chapters, and would like some feedback before I carry on.

    I look forward to your feedback. :)
     
  15. Bernard Guignard

    Bernard Guignard Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm looking forward to seeing the schematics and draft layouts for the manual nice work on the text portions :techman:
     
  16. Egger

    Egger Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Very good work indeed, Praetor.
     
  17. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    I'm not sure if it is a new addition or not, but this bit is a great way to justify the new direction in pylon design that we saw with the Excelsior.
     
  18. xraydeltaone

    xraydeltaone Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Praetor - love it! Keep up the great work. I've been subscribed to this thread for years now and had to log in for the first time in a couple of years to give the thumbs up. :bolian:
     
  19. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Thank you all - your kind words are most flattering. :)

    Well, it was kind of a happy accident. I am actually using the study models that were considered for the design as the SV-20 candidates that I describe, and it just so happens that one can string them into a semi-plausible development order, which happens to have certain features in common.

    I am still debating a bit on a few points, particularly in whether the new warp jumps should be discovered before or after the Excelsior is built. I had previously decided it was before, when I went with the jump-style transwarp, but reversed myself in an effort to snatch victory from chaos. However, I am quite tempted to switch it back again, while still keeping the official scale recalibration until after the trials, probably even into the 24th century.

    Something I think I also need to address is the fact that I envision the refit Enterprise benefiting from much development for Excelsior, as well as becoming a testbed for certain protoform technologies that Excelsior would pioneer. Also, I am uncertain about whether transwarp corridor drive should be available at all speeds, or simply at warp ten-ish. The "all speeds available through transwarp drive" doesn't necessarily mean that all speeds are transwarp, but just that all old speeds are available through it, IMO.

    I've also incorporated a bit of lit-verse stuff while still tiptoeing around what the ship's official size is. :rommie:

    Thoughts are appreciated. :)
     
  20. Mark_Nguyen

    Mark_Nguyen Commodore Commodore

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    The first thing that came to mind when reading the revised chapters was "Hikaru Sulu should write the forward to this manual". And when you're done, he should. ;)

    Excellent work! Loved Scotty's quote. This flows much smoother and more objectively than previous versions and tells a story, which is the ultimate goal of this sort of fiction. Keep 'er coming. :)

    Mark

    PS - Where did the Sulu-on-Exeter reference come from? I seem to have missed that source.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2013