Engineering's curved hallways

Discussion in 'Star Trek - Original Series' started by jayrath, Feb 9, 2012.

  1. feek61

    feek61 Captain Captain

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    The thing is that nobody even seems to consider is that there is no up or down in space. The fact that the engineering corridors are circular could be because they are actually perpendicular to the plan of the saucer section. With artificial gravity it would make no difference. The circular sections could be because those corridors are going around the circumference around the secondary hull.

    Is that too far out?
     
  2. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Conforming to the indentation labeled "cove" on FJ's sheet 3, on the aft underside of the secondary hull, might be a plausible reason for curved hallways, at least under and around the shuttlecraft hangar (cf. The Doomsday Machine).
     
  3. scotpens

    scotpens Vice Admiral Admiral

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    With artificial gravity, I suppose anything is possible.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    They had a standing set that they didn't think too much about. The Jupiter 2 isn't big enough to contain anything like its lower deck (let alone the engine room), and, news flash, the Brady Bunch set doesn't fit into the house exterior shown.

    It's just TV for pete's sake. :)
     
  5. aridas sofia

    aridas sofia Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^This. If I were to make an attempt to create an interior that fit the exterior, I'd probably use the TOS engineering room as an impulse engine room. Then I'd use Phase II and TMP to guide me in creating a space with a reactor and clear shafts extending towards the nacelles. It would probably be a redress of the impulse engineering set- remove the back "trapezoidal" wall and add the long "TMP" shaft that snaked along the secondary hull's upper spine to the pylons. A forced perspective set. I'd use TAS as a guide for the main reactor in the engineering room.

    Maybe the impulse room would look more like the one level, early engine room and warp engineering would look like the later two level space.

    And if I wanted to show someone entering warp engineering, I'd slap a sign saying "WARP ENGINEERING" on a door at the end of the straight corridor.

    The fact something like this was not done is likely attributable not just to lack of time and money. Whatever time and money they had could either be spent on a second engineering space or on other unseen parts of the ship that might have roles wholly unrelated to engineering, to allow story ideas to be explored that otherwise could not.

    Another reason? Confusion. The fact that the ship has propulsion systems for faster than light and slower than light and that one might be a fusion rocket while the other bends spacetime... cool for geeks but probably not of much use to telling stories meant to appeal to a mainstream audience.

    However, if you want to speculate about whether there is an engine room in the saucer of an idealized Enterprise... of course there is. If there is an engine there an engine room is there as well. Can they control the warp drive from this impulse engineering room? Sure! Why not?
     
  6. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Yep.


    No, it's real I tellsya, it's real!!! [/à la Galaxy Quest]
     
  7. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Looks like I missed this thread.

    Apparently the star drive engineering section is in the engineering hull and the location the alien entity exits the ship in "Day of the Dove" can be taken as sufficient evidence.

    However, the Season One set blueprints clearly reveal that the "Engineering Control Room" ("The Naked Time") is obviously on the port side of the saucer (leaving enough space in the center for a turboshaft).

    In addition the context of "Court-Martial" is pretty clear about Finney having sabotaged the Impulse engines and that he is somewhere on the impulse deck ("B Deck" = "Berth Deck" = Main Deck 6, IMHO).

    Bob
     
  8. Kelso

    Kelso Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I love that flick.
     
  9. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The set plans reveal only the layout of the shooting sets on the soundstage, not some correlation to an overall fictional vessel.
     
  10. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Technically correct, but the "odd" angle of the Season One engine room set sticks out like a sore thumb which could suggest a deliberate design, especially since it makes "real life" and "in-universe" sense to enable efficient turbo lift car passage between the hulls. ;)

    Mytran did a nice visualization in this thread (post # 56).

    Bob
     
  11. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    That, blssdwlf's rendering in post #60, and many other things in that thread and referenced in it, are all very interesting.

    However, there's zero evidence that any such layouts were what was specifically intended by the TOS production staff (of Jefferies, Roddenberry, et al.), and moreover there's zero evidence that there was any specific layout intended by them at all, other than that "it all fits in there somehow" (aside from the general parameters outlined in TMoST, and a few known data points such as where the bridge and hangar deck go). The "unearthing" of evidence contradicting that latter point, and of deck plans drawn before or during production in particular, would be a true revelation.
     
  12. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    @Bob - there is plenty of room for interpretation. As others said, the standing set doesn't have to correlate to physical arrangement. I had put the S1 engine room on the starboard side whereas you and Mytran had a port side arrangement.
     
  13. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    But by doing it your way you violated the "Thermian Directive", IMHO.

    Where there is a clear cut between camera shots (e.g. "Court-Martial") one could speculate that the "in-universe" alignment could be different, but in "The Naked Time" we do see part of the Engineering Control Room from the outside and we do see the outside corridor from the inside the very next second.

    I'm sure an elaborated computer analysis of the footage will reveal that the Season One studio set plan is accurate. ;)

    @ Corporal Captain

    While technically there is "zero evidence" that Matt Jefferies and the producers deliberately designed the impulse engine rooms to allow room for a straight turbo lift connection between the engineering and the saucer hull, there is still a thing called "common sense" and simple logic.

    And there is a noticable difference in height between the Season One and the Season Two/Three engine room that suggests these engine rooms to be different entities, add to this that Scotty was making a call to other "engine rooms" in "The Naked Time", so there is definitely more than one.

    To me it looks that Mr. Joseph did not have any blueprint of the Season One Studio set, but essentially mixed the Season Two blueprint illustrated in The Making of Star Trek with the Season One (!) text information referring to the Season One Studio set blueprint and location in the saucer hull.
    Which, of course, would be a simple explanation why most fans assume the engine room to be located at the center stern of the saucer.

    But whatever the case - back to the original topic - regardless of location there will always be a circular corridor in front of the engine room.

    Bob
     
  14. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    That doesn't really speak to any of what I said here, so I don't even know why you're addressing me with it.
     
  15. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    A circular corridor outside of "The Naked Time" engine room isn't being debated in my response. It's the placement of the room at port or starboard side of the saucer that we have a difference of opinion and you'll find no visual evidence to support a conclusive right or wrong answer, IMO.
     
  16. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    We do see the corridor leading to the Engineering Control room in two scenes with Kirk and Spock in "The Naked Time", the area in front of the Season Two/Three engine room (you placed on the port side and which they must have passed) simply is not there.

    Add to this that the enter scenes of the Engineering Control Room,
    http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x04hd/thenakedtimehd0979.jpg
    and
    http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x04hd/thenakedtimehd0980.jpg
    provide us with sufficient background information (near the floor) to conclude that the Season One studio set blueprint and the alignment of the Engineering Control Room is accurate as shown and seen on these set plans.

    The Thermians might not have had access to the studio set blueprint but their analysis of the "original documentary footage" would have yielded an exact reproduction of that blueprint, IMO.

    If you prefer to have it differently that's your choice, and frankly, I'm grateful you did it your way as this was a contributing factor to inspire my deck plan project. :)

    Bob
     
  17. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    What area would that be? The set used had an intervening angled hallway that Scotty runs down to get power to the helm. Also, you're now mixing S2/3 with S1. If you were to posit that the S2/3 engine room co-exists with S1 in the saucer, where is the visual that shows further down there is a starboard side engine room in S2/3? That doesn't exist.

    The only conclusion I can draw is between S1 and S2 the engine rooms were upgraded and the corridors altered.

    That doesn't alter the fact that the S1 engine room could be either port or starboard and no conclusion could be drawn from just the interior sets.


    That is not in debate. The alignment of the engine room however has no obvious relationship to the alignment of it relative to the ship.

    They would have yielded an exact reproduction of the visible elements, not the blueprints. :) Which still would not be able to yield information on whether the engine room was on the port or starboard side. As I've said, it would still be an interpretation as to it's placement in the ship.

    Glad I could help and you're a great example of how different people can interpret the series in different ways (which is a good thing). :)
     
  18. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Et tu, Maurice?

    I've come to hold you in high esteem for your knowledgable and common sense BBS contributions (and your footnotes) but this remark constitutes quite a letdown and I'll have to insist that you deliver proof for this assumption (a statement from Matt Jefferies, please).

    We do have historical records where Roddenberry made it clear he wanted the show to be as realistic as humanly possible to set it apart from pulp science fiction, and an interior ship layout that would follow some kind of internal logic would have been mandatory, wouldn't it?

    You yourself provided evidence (regarding the delta insignia) how nitpicky Bob Justman was about such details and I have no doubt that Matt Jefferies, too, understood what the mission goal was.

    The series started with small sets for "The Cage", which featured the Bridge and the Briefing Lounge with an adjacent corridor to access either Pike's cabin or the Transporter Room.

    For WNM they still had the Bridge and the Briefing Lounge. A longer corridor (see my Avatar) was constructed with a turbo lift door, a door to the Transporter Room and the first sickbay.

    Since the corridor with sickbay has a strange angle, I presume the original idea was to have "circular" saucer corridors by means of straight wall elements in angles that will eventually form something compatible within a circular saucer.

    But then came the greenlight for the regular series and Matt Jefferies got the chance to design a circular studio set that would be compatible with a saucer hull. There should be little doubt that he knew that this one set would be often redressed to portray different sections of the ship.

    In my deck plan thread I created a template that illustrates the issue (turned out to have a design flaw for which I'm to blame).

    If instead of a Season Two corridor you connect another Season One corridor at "1 o'clock" you'll get an obvious symetrical layout of outward going corridors spaced apart exactly by 60° each and absolutely compliant with the hexagonal nature of the Briefing Lounge.

    So this is just a coincidence without intelligent design by Matt Jefferies? :rolleyes:

    Obviously, when he designed the Season One set he couldn't know that he'd get the opportunity to redesign the set for Season Two.

    While the Season Two set is much longer than the Season One set it did not only fill the Season One alignment gap at 5 o'clock (not illustrated!) but actually cannibalized part of the "sickbay" corridor end.

    At first I wondered why he did that. Hadn't he paid attention, didn't he care?

    The obvious answer became crystal clear when I redesigned the Deck 5 plan and especially the outer Areas (e.g. between 12 and 2 o'clock):

    Once you bend the radius of the Season Two / Three corridor to present the outer corridor, its rectangular corridors become spot-on-match with the rectangular corridors of the inner Season One Studio set corridors !!! :eek:

    So what is this? Just another collossal coincidence? :rofl:

    Just because Matt Jefferies didn't get a chance to tell us about his intentions, doesn't mean those didn't exist. Again, the result is self-explanatory once you take the time and take a closer look at the subject.



    Anyway, although we do not "know" whether Matt Jefferies intended the port impulse engine room to be where it is in relation to the rest of the ship, those with eyes to see will notice
    • that the spacing between two studio set impulse engine rooms aligns rather well with the impulse exhausts on the 11-foot-model (and its rectangular and symetrical surface markings!)
    • that the spacing between two studio set impulse engine rooms allows for a turbo shaft to run in between to connect the saucer with the engineering hull
    Objectively, this is an elegant, simple, beautiful and easy-to-understand layout, therefore I absolutely do not understand why we are even discussing whether that's what he intended or not.

    Those how find fault with it or altered the Jefferies' design still owe us one answer: WHY?

    What's wrong with Matt Jefferies' layout and what's better in the competing and conjectural designs?

    If it ain't broken, don't fix or alter it!

    Bob
     
  19. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Commander Red Shirt

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    @op

    Another intresting take is the corridors are curved for security reasons like trenchs.

    If there is a enemy bording party it would make it allot more difficult for them to start a fire fight.
     
  20. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Because Jefferies and Justman and the rest were in the business of making a TV series on a fixed budget, not designing and building a spaceship.

    Next.
     

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