End of Shadow War = Lame

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Starfleet Engineer, Sep 13, 2008.

  1. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    I said out, dammit!
    We need that on a T-Shirt!
     
  2. Jim Steele

    Jim Steele Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If people wanted it to end with another shooting match, they've missed the point entirely.
     
  3. MyCylon

    MyCylon Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Am I a Cylon?
    Personally, I don't feel it comes down to different acting styles. I'm fine with that. I just don't feel she can act worth a dime. Granted, that's my personal judgement, and I'm by no means an expert.

    I was always interested in the character of Delenn, for example, but it was a constant battle for me. Having to take her seriously meant filtering out big parts of Furlan's performance which I just found absolutely cringe worthy a lot of the time.

    The interesting thing for me is that I CAN actually enjoy watching people who aren't what I consider good or great actors and enjoy myself anyway. Arnold is a great example of this, but he's got such good screen presence that I get a lot of fun out of his movies.

    Furlan IMHO just doesn't have that. She basically lacks the skill AND the presence to pull off the Delenn part sufficiently.

    I think it's to the show's credit that it works (for me) anyway. Delenn is well defined as a character. There's many different sides to her, and she has some darker qualites about her that I really like.

    If people enjoy Furlan's performance, that's great. But personally, I don't see how one can even begin to compare her with the likes of Robinson or others. But then, such is life that we don't always understand the people around us ;).


    That's a quibble I have with the show myself. It doesn't bother me as much today but I remember it really stood out to me during the original run.

    One of the things I remember (and I know this is venturing into dangerous territoriy ;)) is that I found the Dominion threat on DS9 to be a lot more menacing for that reason precisely.
    On B5, you'd have these spider-like Shadow ships appear, blast everything to bits and disappear. That's frightening on a rational level but not so much on an emotional one, I find.
    On DS9, on the other hand, you were constantly confronted with the face of the enemy. The combination of cruelty, ruthlessness, intelligence, and charm that characterizes one Gul Dukat is IMHO a lot more menacing.
    I think you can see this phenomenon if you watch the news. It's the close-up and personal tragedies that really move us, not the broad, sweeping disasters, I think.


    Very true.

    I've also found that it's a reminder to keep an open mind to new shows. Sometimes you'll see somebody react very negatively to a show, and you remember how negative you were before you really gave it a chance yourself.
     
  4. Jan

    Jan Commodore Commodore

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    ...is insane. --JMS
    There's a JMS post where he discusses showing vs not showing something that might be relevant to this.
    As he indicated at times in the script books, sometimes he tried to convey a sense of something kind of subliminally rather than pointing a spotlight at it. That was behind his not giving Morden a first name, too, as I recall.

    Jan
     
  5. stonester1

    stonester1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Like some of what is going on with Fringe. I suspect that show will be one of those which may turn out to be a genre classic, if not a phenomenon. But a pilot that had a show feeling it's way and seeking to differentiate itself from it's famous pod-brother, The X-Files, has some people writing it off right out the gate.

    I'm one of those who is cautious about new shows, but I do have a few I'm looking forward to, mostly due to the pedigree of their creators (Abrams, Moore, Whedon). But I am open to others, and if the geek meter seems to tickle my genre sweet spots, I may give a gander.
     
  6. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    I don't think anyone has said that they wanted that.
     
  7. Jim Steele

    Jim Steele Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Just saying.

    Personally I think it was a perfect resolution to that whole arc.
     
  8. My favorite was how, whenever Delenn had to be profound or wise or all holy-like, she'd just raise her voice to a high whisper, and that's it. Or when she had to be serious or bad-ass, just make her voice real deep (to the point where she would actually croak out words), and that's it, no body inflection whatsoever.

    Delenn had some powerful WRITTEN moments. Some of that stuff would be mind-blowing television with a truly great actress.

    A lot of B5 actors though do get by out of sheer earnestness, though. You can just see and hear that Boxleitner isn't a praticularly good actor, but he does it with such gusto that its hard not like him, sort of like some of the dodgy but fun action in the original star wars movie.
     
  9. Neroon

    Neroon Mod of Balance Moderator

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    I was thinking the very same thing. ;)

    I grant that Mira wasn't quite adept at comic moments for the most part, yet there were several dramatic ones which I felt she nailed beautifully. We shouldn't concentrate on comparisons between her and Andy any more, since the topic here is the End of the Shadow War. Since the quality of acting is an art very much in the eye of the beholder, suffice it to say that we simply have to agree to disagree.


    SO returning to the actual topic, the Shadows' malevolence didn't require getting to know them on such a personal level. It was very real and palpable to me, because of the way we understood their modus operandi. They used other people, other races to achieve their goals. The Vorlons did as well. That was central to the overall story. These shepherds for the younger races had no trouble getting someone else to do the dirty work for them until the time was right for more direct involvement. Hence why we had people like Morden, Justin and Anna. Seeing them and the way their lives were manipulated and torn apart by the Shadows agenda was more than enough cause to be frightened by a race with such disregard for other lives. We see their evil through the way they turned Londo and the entire Centauri race into agents of that evil. THAT was the face of the Shadows. THAT is what personalized them if such was needed.

    This was a very different kind of villain from what Trek spoon-fed us. It was a villainy that wasn't quite so easy to define. And when the Vorlons, previously thought to be mroe or less "good guys" turned out to be not so good after all, that jsut kicks the legs out of it altogether
     
  10. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yep, it was terrible - bargain-basement "Captain Kirk," and it eliminated the last pretense the series had to complex and sophisticated storytelling.
     
  11. Neroon

    Neroon Mod of Balance Moderator

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    As always, to each their own, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, etc. etc. etc.
     
  12. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    I just found it rushed, like it was way too easy to convince the Vorlons and Shadows to leave, but I'm very okay with the idea behind it.
     
  13. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Lets not forget that Lorien was standing RIGHT there. Lorien being the closest thing to a living god in the eyes of the other first ones, that had to have factored into their acceptance. Also, being first ones I imagine they're a little quicker on the uptake than most so once it became clear they'd failed as guardians, what else could they do?
     
  14. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    I dunno. I think just would have liked a little more time spent with the First Ones, instead of them just taking off.
     
  15. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The guy has spent the last million years sitting at the bottom of a pit. Time doesn't mean the same to him as it does to us.
    He also spent two decades waiting beyond the rim for Sheridan to croak.
     
  16. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    I just mean "on screen" time. Have the next half of an episode deal with the departure of the First Ones, instead of them just being suddenly gone.

    It's not a big deal, really. It's the storytelling, not the story itself, that felt rushed.
     
  17. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's supposed to be sudden. Besides, I think it'd rather out of character for them to have a drawn out farewell. Silently sidling off, phasing out or zooming off is much more in keeping with what we've come to expect from them.

    Of course all we saw was them all leaving Coriana VI space. it was at least several days before Z'ha'dum was fully evacuated and with Vorlon space sealed off there's no telling what went on when they left.
     
  18. Starfleet Engineer

    Starfleet Engineer Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I just rewatched the scene that ended the Shadow War again and I have to say that it does appear that I may enjoy the series even more the second time through, knowing what I'll know. But after watching this scene again something jumped out at me very plainly. This whole scenario reminds me of our political scene. Conservative Republicans vs. Liberal Democrats. It seemed so obvious that I'm surprised it didn't jump out at me this plainly the first time. The Vorlons, order, obedience (religious), "of the past," Shadows, "of the future," chaos, Darwin's natural selection (science). But the thing that stuck out to me most in this comparison is the idea that, to the Vorlons and Shadows, it was no longer about helping the younger races (the people), it had become completely about which team wins and has bragging rights. Then, in the scene, the people step up to these two "parties" and say "Enough! We don't need you anymore. Get the hell out of our galaxy!"

    Anyone else see it that way?
     
  19. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    Well, I do now...
     
  20. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The conflict between order and chaos and the need to move out of your parents' influence is as old as the hills. It's just as relevant today as it was in the days of Nebuchadnezzar. As such you can find parallels in socio-political situations throughout history.