End of Shadow War = Lame

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Starfleet Engineer, Sep 13, 2008.

  1. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Moderator

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    Let's watch the spoilers. Easy to forget, I know.
     
  2. DWF

    DWF Admiral Admiral

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    http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/072.html#JS


    I think it's too easy to see the Shadow war being some kind of good VS evil conflict but it was never meant to be that way. Of course it's hard to any possible way the Shadows wree in any way "good" but I guess that depends on your point of view.
     
  3. Jan

    Jan Commodore Commodore

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    ...is insane. --JMS
    The Vorlons weren't exactly good guys either. The first Kosh killed DeathWalker, terrorized Talia Winters and brutalized Sheridan when he dared to stand up to him; the second mistreated and assaulted Lyta. They stood around looking cryptic while they manipulated the other races to fight and die for them. Nope, not good guys at all.

    Jan
     
  4. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    True, but the second Kosh (or Ulkesh) had nothing but bad intentions from my viewing.

    The first Kosh, on the other hand, killed Deathwalker because of the negative effects her technology were about to cause. He messed with Lyta, but that probably had something to do with her Psi Corp reconditioning (we'll never know, since Andrea Thompson left the show). And he had a fight with Sheridan that Sheridan won. Hardly the stuff of a villain.
     
  5. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think it should be remembered that Kosh admitted he was wrong and was willing to sacrifice himself to correct that error. Not something I can ever see Ulkesh doing.

    http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-1325
    I think what some people miss in "Into The Fire" and quite understandably by the way it was presented is that Loiren let the whole fleet saw the Vorlons and Shadows "private" discussion with Sheridan and Delenn. Any doubts about their moral authority disappeared when the whole fleet crowed around Whitestar 2, willingly sacrificing themselves. If they'd have had the budget for it, it might have helped to have been able to see the other races on their ships...or not, as it would have split the focus of the argument.
     
  6. Tulin

    Tulin Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's the whole pint - that they ARE children to Lorien. One of the motiffs in B5 is that there is a heirarchy to existence in the universe and that for every omniscient/omnipotent appearing race in the universe, there is a race that is so old and advanced it alost appears to be like THAT race's parent.

    The point is that eventually WE become the shepherds to younger races and will WE do better?

    It is pretty self-evident.
     
  7. stonester1

    stonester1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yup, the first Kosh WAS a "good guy". Not that his race was evil, they weren't. But they were aloof, detatched and had their own agenda. At one time, they were about the well being of the younger races, but over time, that changed.

    That is one of the things that made Kosh Naranek such a bleeding heart. He WAS about the well being of the other races and actually cared about them.

    Even cared about individuals among the other races, which may have even made him unique among his people, and probably a chief reason why he got the assignment to B5.
     
  8. RJDiogenes

    RJDiogenes Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion Premium Member

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    The end of the Shadow War was possibly my favorite part of Babylon 5. For one thing, it illustrated the weakness and insecurity that lies behind the hunger for power. But, even better, it was a great metaphor for the times we live in: It showed Humanity trapped between two extreme and ridiculous ideologies, and it gave us the proper response: "Get the hell out of our galaxy." :D
     
  9. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^^^^Whatever would those two ideologies now trapping humanity be?

    As to the main topic, remember the most brilliant victory is the one won without fighting. Any notion that a satisfactory climax involves the humans actually defeating the Vorlons and the Shadows is childish. A major point of the series is that the Shadows and the Vorlons keep playing war games because they aren't paying any price for it. If either the Shadows or the Vorlons attempted to continue their attack on the supporters of the other, then they would be facing the combined might of the enemy (alone more or less equal,) the united lesser races, and the remnant First Ones brought by Ivanova. That coalition would exact altogether too high a price for their glorified hobby. The only way Shadows and Vorlons could continue is to make an agreement---then the lesser races, even with the First Ones, wouldn't have a chance. But then, if the Shadows and Vorlons could have agreed, would there have been a cycle of wars in the first place?

    The climax is better than thrilling---it's honest and inevitable.
     
  10. RJDiogenes

    RJDiogenes Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion Premium Member

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    Why, Coke and Pepsi, of course. :p
     
  11. Jan

    Jan Commodore Commodore

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    Tsk-tsk...Green and Purple! ;)

    Jan
     
  12. Meredith

    Meredith Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Damn Vorlons and their Coke and Damn Shadows and their Pepsi.


    I wonder who drinks generic soda?
     
  13. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    Trek aliens.
     
  14. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    The Drazi drink RC Cola.
     
  15. Meredith

    Meredith Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Purple Drazi drink RC Cola, Green Drazi drink Diet RC Cola!
     
  16. Ryan Thomas Riddle

    Ryan Thomas Riddle Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Shasta!
     
  17. RJDiogenes

    RJDiogenes Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion Premium Member

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    Red Drazi and Blue Drazi. :D

    Well, the pak'ma'ra, but that kind of goes without saying.... :rommie:
     
  18. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Pak'ma'ra can only drink cola that has been flat for three days. They're carrion drinkers too, you know.
     
  19. stonester1

    stonester1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Preferably after someone has peed in it, too.
     
  20. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    I said out, dammit!