Early on, could Seska have flipped Neelix?

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Guy Gardener, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Neelix wasn't happy or impressed in the beginning.

    He lied to Janeway in the pilot, starting their grudgematch with the Kazon, then he out right called Starfleet fools for persisting in pure science which always blows up in their faces when their balls are already in a vice, during The Cloud.

    If that didn't make him an easy mark, his girlfriend was still a virgin.

    If that didn't make him an easy mark, his girlfriend could have easily swallowed a small explosive or half the active ingredients to a virile poison.

    If that didn't make him an easy mark, Kazon ship yards could have built Neelix his own Intrepid Class Star Ship after they pulled Voyager to pieces.

    It was foolish to leave all her eggs in one basket with Jonas... How hard would it have been to recruit this duplicitous opportunist too? Especially since the only reason Jonas failed to deliver Voyager at the apex of one of Seska's middling master machinations was Neelix alone holding the line against a certain Cardassian... I mean, Kazon victory, over Michael Jonas' dead body.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2013
  2. Freman

    Freman Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I doubt it. Neelix had too much integrity to side with Seska.
     
  3. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    what would Neelix have gotten out of it? Seska had nothing to offer him, he had no great prospects going with the Kazon. Neelix was better off on Voyager.
     
  4. Udat

    Udat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    As Guy said Neelix could have got alot of Tech of Voyager to sell to the Kazon.
     
  5. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And sex.

    Chakotay was pretty clear about that that.

    She controlled men with sex.

    Was I too subtle about that in the first post?
     
  6. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    He would have had to have dumped Kes who he was infatuated with. Kes may have been the best thing that ever happened to him up to this point, there is no way he would dump her for the lure of tech and sex. Neelix seems like he could be the sort of guy who needs to be attached to powerful women and do their bidding but his whole role with Kes was of benefactor and savior, this was his paydirt in that relationship. Every time that role was on shaky ground he was very threatened.
     
  7. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The first 6 months of their relationship, she was a kazon slavegirl who probably at the least had he ass grabbed 5 times an hour like any waitress in the real world too... Do you really think Neelix, half a sector away, was celibate while whatever was happening to Kes was happening to Kes in the Kaozn camp?

    Bad shit happened after dark.

    Besides there's this thing guys do where they have secret sex with other women who they are not married to while they are married... I think it's happened at least twice in the history of the world. If Neelix was screwing around on Kes, it would really explain his ridiculous jealous streak that his own unfaithfulness would explain his lack of faith in her.

    Seska was frakking Jonas?

    Seska was frakking Jonas.

    Nobody knew.

    She got power and leverage from secrets.

    If Tuvok knew that Jonas had been frakking Seska, then finding the mole on Voyager wouldn't have been that difficult... Or the Vulcan was having trouble tracking her 9 to 15 "known" sexual partners, including Chuckles.
     
  8. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think both Seska and Neelix are too smart to side with the other.

    Seska knows Neelix can't keep anything secret, and that he's unreliable and a bit of a coward.

    Neelix knows neither the Seska nor the Kazon will keep their end of the bargain, or keep Kes safe. Plus, he may not have been the Starfleet type at the beginning, but he was also 100% harmless and incapable of intentionally harming anyone.
     
  9. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Harmless?

    Didn't you see his food fight with Tom?
     
  10. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Flipped him, as in converted him to her plans, or offered him something he wanted?

    Seska had no sensible plans. Was she planning on creating a Delta Quadrant Cardassian empire? No one else would be on board for that.

    Get home faster by selling the Ocampa to the Kazon? Couldn't happen after Janeway destroyed the array.

    Get home faster by meaning really mean to the people you meet? The only that works is if you enjoy being mean, so that the time seems to pass faster.:lol:

    Have Chakotay's child? Not even Chakotay wanted that, Neelix sure wouldn't.

    Unite the Maquis and Starfleet parts of the crew in anti-Cardassianism by engaging in pointless but menacing plots against everybody? That's basically the function of the character, but there was no reason for Seska to do this, except she was an eeeeevil Space Nazi, er, Cardassian.

    If Seska had stayed on board after being exposed, there might have been a real Maquis/Starfleet conflict over what to do with the Cardassian spy. But I suppose that the Maquis slavering to imprison/maroon/murder her would have made the Maquis look bad, so that was out.
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Seska's plan-A was obvious, she was grooming Chakotay for leadership who she could control after Janeway had had an unfortunate accident. Plan-A-part-2 was to create beneficial alliances with the locals which is so evil of her, compared to Janeways plan to to be such an asshole to the Kazon that total war was unavoidable.

    If Seska had stayed on the ship, and put an end to all the namby pambiness...

    When they had found the other Caretaker Array, they would have used it to go home, or Seska would have also ignored the Ferengi and used the Barzan wormhole to go home. She also would have sold out Quinn to the Q and Frakked Q to give him a Cardassian Q offspring.

    Little things.

    Neelix couldn't trust the Kazon? Really? What had the kazon ever done to him? Nothing! Meanwhile he stole A LOT of water off them and then stole a slave girl off them. That's a lot of bad faith from the kitchenrat.

    Neelix was a criminal who had to answer to Kazon justice at some point.
     
  12. Freman

    Freman Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Like I said, Neelix had too much integrity to side with Seska.
     
  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Because she stole his mushrooms?

    Why steal?

    If the little Maquis girl had grazed her front up against his multi-chromatic tuxedo and fluttered something, like maybe her eye lashes possibly, it's autonomic that Neelix would have completely opened up his larder to whatever... Integrity?

    This fuzzy stubby man once used Kim's blood on his knuckles as an aphrodisiac!

    In this case, Seska wanted Chakotay to join her conspiracy and enjoy her forbidden fruit, dirty as it sounds, at Neelix's expense! Seska failed unfortunately because Chakotay had too much integrity to steal food from the ships stores.

    Neelix on the other hand is a no good dirty drug dealer.
     
  14. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The difficulties with the Kazon stemmed from not giving them the array, and the Ocampa along with it. That was decided in the pilot. Later, Seska would have played factions in the Kazon, leading to more violence. So, yes, it would have been evil.

    The other Caretaker was not going to be made to do anything she didn't want to do. If she didn't want to send Janeway home, no way she would to send Seska home. Just because you like Seska more doesn't mean that most people don't prefer someone less vicious. Seska's willingness to spread her legs doesn't make her acceptable to those who aren't hoping to.

    Quinn would never have been fool enough to ask Seska for sanctuary, knowing exactly what the answer would have been.

    It was odd enough that Q wanted Janeway to have his baby. Wanting Seska to have his baby? That exceeds even a hardened SF fan's ability to suspend disbelief.

    The Barzan wormhole? Maybe. Except that the Ferengi would have bribed her, and been in an even better position to have tricked her. Con men find illicit lures to be the most successful back.

    A Seska would never have gotten The Gift from Kes, so it's doubtful that they could have reached the Barzan wormhole in time anyhow.
     
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The Barzan Wormhole was early season 3 before the gift. :)

    The Oogla had the Array and the Nistrim were under Cullah. It's like confusing America with Mexico. The only other time Janeway met he Oogla was in Initiations with Kar, who seemed to have a dislike for the "Federations" without being able to pinpoint what happened at the Array as the root. It's possible that Jabin didn't tell anyone what happened, or changed the story so that he won the battle and destroyed the array to stop Janeway from conquering the Quadrant. We saw in Juggernaut that the Kazon were telling huge lies about Janeway to anyone who would listen which was narrowing their pool of allies.

    Tuvok was on top of Caretaker technology and could have sent them home in the pilot, but they didn't want to leave the Ocampa in the lurch. Susperia was superfluous to the cause. She could have said "no" a thousand times but that Vulcan could have had his way with her array and there was nothing she could have done about it. Susperia was a crazy old lady and Federation science under Janeways direction invented an antisporositian weapon that could kill the girl Nacene. Janeway decided to say "Look how I could kill you but I haven't... We should be friends!" Seska would have just killed her... Well, actually Captain Chakotay who would have been swayed by her counsel would have been manoeuvred into killing the old Caretaker. She'd be the devil on his should rather than be upfront about being in charge. So Q would have tried to have a baby with Chakotay? but really, Q knew his son and knew the mother of his child but he had to go through the motions of being "rejected" by a human suitor before him and the missus could knock boots which means that his proposition to Janeway was utterly insincere. Later you'll remember the entire crew handed over their dna to make babies/duplicates with the quicksilver lifeforms, which was an identical prospect to what Q offered, only no one was going to send them home after they finished their cigarette.

    The Ferengi used the Prime Directive to manipulate Janeway who was about to lock them up into sending them back to the planet... And then she decides after releasing these two unsavoury characters, to trick the buggers back into her brig (probably a couple staterooms?) because, maybe, they had to want to go home with her? YIKES! As I said before, Seska would have told Chakotay to ignore them, because they had nothing of value to any one on Voyager. The only reason that they were a problem is becuase Janeway kept engaging them afer they thought they had won.

    It's not like Seska was the town bike, and later Janeway was a bit of a whore when she sexually manipulated Kashak into not sending a gaggle of children to a concentration camp. It's not the worst thing in the world to let men be nice to you because they want something you have no intention of giving them. Actually, it's pretty standard.
     
  16. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Suspiria had lots of super-powered Ocampa for friends, who would have objections to Seska killing Suspiria and having her way. So, no.

    The Ferengi had money, a ship, possible exchange value as prisoners, and, at the very least, offered a distraction, all of which would have been attractive to Seska in plotting her getaway on return to Federation space. So, no, Seska would also have engaged with the Ferengi, albeit for different purposes. But I suppose you could rebut that Seska was a better villain than the Ferengi, and would have won instead. So, maybe.

    I guess that's why people curse Voyager's wasted potential, it could have been just three seasons instead of seven.:techman:
     
  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Susperia with a gun to her head and those Ocampa will be the most obedient bitches ever.

    You recall that the Federation does not use or understand money? Janeways problem was that the ferengi were enslaving a village. Seriously A VILLAGE... Not a world, but a village, and their ship was a shuttle pod that hadn't been serviced in 7 years which may not even be capable of warp speed.
     
  18. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Wait, wait...

    You're saying that if a person frees a slave from somebody, it's that person who is guilty of theft?

    The south shall rise again I guess?
     
  19. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Where slavery is legal, that's completely true.

    Prostitution is legal in my country.

    If I go to America and feel like whoring it up anywhere except Nevada, I don't anticipate that the policemen and policewomen kicking my door down will care that my country is more civilized than their country and that my superior civility should make me immune from the laws they are are upholding with a billy club to my face.

    It's called cultural relativity.
     
  20. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Are you making a technical argument that strictly interpreted it is stealing, or are you morally defending slavery on the grounds that in some cultures it is legal and in some cultures it is not? If it's the former, yes, that is technically correct, stealing Kes makes Neelix a thief. If it's the latter, that is absurd.

    Law is created by whoever has military and political control over an area at the moment. Strictly the act of creating that law does not make it a legitimate law if that power was taken by force instead of given by consent. And no law is legitimate if it violates people's natural right to life, liberty and property. Where slavery is legal, it is not a legitimate law. And while yes you will be punished for disobeying it, the legal definition of a thief is not the same as the moral definition of one.

    As for comparison to 'moral watchdog' laws such as the law against prostitution or other mutual contracts, while I may oppose them, putting it on the same level as slavery is absurd.
     

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