Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Aldo, Aug 9, 2013.

  1. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    You mean Siona, right? There's no "Sabina" in God Emperor of Dune.

    But... ERASMUS THE ROBOT painted that! KJA/BH said so! :brickwall: :censored: :scream:

    I always liked Lucilla more.

    As for Odrade... you could make a drinking game out of how many times she stares at people.
     
  2. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    She's more intriguing (given her history). I just have a soft spot for Odrade as BG.

    :lol:. You're right. I'll have to try that next re-read.
     
  3. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Personally, my favourite character of the whole series is Miles Teg. I honestly don't know why some people dislike the last two Dune novels (ever!) as they have some of the most enjoyable characterisations of the whole series IMO.
     
  4. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I definitely think his writing of characters gets better with each book, which is why I like Waff and Odrade (and Lucilla). They feel more real, rather than ciphers.

    I'm sure I read somewhere that Herbert liked the Lynch Dune, and began to incorporate elements of his interpretation/characterisations into his novels. Perhaps one of the more knowledgeable Dune experts can verify?
     
  5. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I do remember reading that he really liked what Lynch did with the Guild Navigator, though he thought it could have been "stranger." Don't recall ever hearing that the movie influenced the last two books, though I suppose it's possible as they were both being written around the same time.

    RE characterisation: It's funny, but I remember thinking that Paul never quite seemed like a "real" person until after he became the Preacher. Oddly enough I felt the same thing happened with Alec Newman's performance in the mini-series. He really came alive as the Preacher.
     
  6. Hound of UIster

    Hound of UIster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I always felt that the era in the last two books felt more "modern" than the Imperium or theocracy that existed in the previous books.
     
  7. Aldo

    Aldo Admiral Admiral

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    Whoops :wtf:

    For some reason I keep wanting to refer to here as Sabina...even when discussing the book with a friend of mine. It's really odd.
     
  8. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Seems like a good place to use this passage from Heretics:
     
  9. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I finished my reread of God Emperor. It was better than I remembered. Its philosophy, while still not something I particularly liked, was atleast more interesting to read than in Children of Dune (it flowed better because it was mostly done in conversations than in pages of description). It still had some weird parts. Siona did a really weird turn at the end after Leto's death. Why the hell does she want to mate with Duncan now? She didn't want to, then immediately after Leto dies she thinks about how she'll have to seduce Duncan. That just came out of left field. If the story had written them becoming closer or something (like Leto planned) it would have made sense, but she just randomly decides she's going to seduce him. Also, Duncan was an idiot. Where did he think Hwi would be when they killed Leto? Of course she'd be right next to him, and would fall off the bridge when they destroyed it.

    Another thing I noticed is that Frank Herbert got really creepy a few times. I could have done with out the sex references (why is Duncan climbing a wall need to be described as..."exciting" Nayla?). Also, the philosophy about the Fish Speakers was not just boring, it was kind of creepy. I also didn't need to learn that Duncan really doesn't like gay people, that seems like the kind of fact that just makes Duncan seem like an unlikeable a-hole. Its not even like it was a throwaway comment, its a full conversation that just made me wonder what the point is. I guess it was more of FH's philosophy, but I just don't see the point. If it was philosophy, I'm not sure what side FH was trying to support, either.

    So, overall, this is a good book, and even though it has a good amount of philosophy I don't care about, it gets derailed by it less than Children of Dune did. Next up will be Heretics of Dune.
     
  10. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    I'd have to reread that, but I think part of it was that Duncan himself was heterosexual, and during his time with the Fremen, he internalized much of their culture and attitudes. Homosexuality/lesbianism were, to the Fremen, anathema. As in any tribal culture, people who refused to conform, refused to do their part in reproducing the next generation, were detrimental to the tribe's survival, and therefore were not to be tolerated.

    As for FH's own opinions, who cares?
     
  11. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't really care, its just somethingthat came to mind while I was reading the book. I get the fremen thing, although I think Duncan's opinion was formed before the few months he spent with the fremen (he also made an ass of himself when it came to women soldiers, so I don't think it was his fremen experience that made him an ass).

    Personally, I'm heterosexual but I think everyone has the right to be with whoever they want. It was just weird to see that section of God Emperor. I didn't remember that paticular topic ever coming up in the Dune books, so it kind of caught me off guard. It doesn't really effect my opinion of Duncan, he's just more of an ass than I remembered (I actually like Duncan, but God Emperor was definately not his finest hour). It was not a big deal, and when it comes to weird parts of the book I have more problem with Nayla and her climbing "excitement", its just something I didn't remember and that surprised me a bit.
     
  12. JustAFriend

    JustAFriend Commodore Commodore

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    Back in late '83 (about 6 months before the film came out) my wife and I were out shopping in a central Ohio mall when I saw two people dressing in robes.

    "Look! Those are stillsuits!" I told her.

    Sure enough, the movie company had a marketing campaign going before the release of the film.
    Very innovative for the time.
    (And considering the area, I was probably the only person in the mall who had any idea what it was about...)
     
  13. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's been a while since I'v read the book, but my recollection is that Duncan witnesses some Fish Speakers getting up to hanky panky and promptly freaks out. As for the author's views, I think Leto's reaction says it all. He's patiently amused by Duncan's attitude, asserting that it's perfectly natural and even citing Alexander the Great to dismiss any notion that homosexuals can't be effective soldiers.

    In Duncan's defence, he's a product of his time and upbringing. Clearly, in 10,191 AG Imperium societal attitudes had swung back towards that sort of thing being an abhorrence, thank perhaps to the prevalence of OC Bible. Another more personal factor may have been some negative connotations associated with the Baron's tastes and perhaps Harkonnens in general.

    Leto on the other hand was pre-born with Other Memory. With the total accumulated knowledge of his ancestors, any illusion any notion of an absolute morality was probably the first thing he lost.
     
  14. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This isn't unique to Herbert. His whole generation of SF writers tends to be like this.
     
  15. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, if you want creepy sex stuff, check out Heinlein's later works. Not creepy in the sense that it's explicit....just generally creepy in a "free love carried a bit too far" kind of way. Herbert was decidedly mild by comparison.

    Or then there's 'Brave New World' which very early on features a scene I won't even describe for fear of the internet police turning up. Suffice to say, if they ever try adapting that one to film again, you can file that scene under "unfilmable."
     
  16. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    Dune came out in the '60s, which was the era of the "Dangerous Visions" stories that Harlan Ellison edited. Science fiction novels were getting edgier, and some authors really pushed the boundaries. The original version of Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land wasn't published until relatively recently (not sure what year), because it was too risque for the '60s.

    What's creepy about multi-generational group marriage (Lazarus, Maureen, and Ira Johnson)? :alienblush:

    After seeing the Oz TV series (the prison show), I can't think of anything from Brave New World that would be unfilmable.
     
  17. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Besides the lengths gone to to genetically modify offspring so they can breed without fear of undesirable mutation? Nothing whatsoever. :ack:

    Really? How about a room full of 700 odd kindergarteners, sans garments...uh..."playing"? Pretty sure even HBO wouldn't go there!
     
  18. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    Okay, it's obviously been too long since I last read that book... :alienblush:
     
  19. The Borgified Corpse

    The Borgified Corpse Admiral Admiral

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    "If someone asks you if you're starting a cult, you say YES!"
    --L. Ron Hubbard by way of Ghostbusters:p
     
  20. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    There was already a SF-inspired cult going on around that time: the water-cult of Stranger in a Strange Land, when people went around "grokking" everything.