Dukat character - writer's mess?!

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Dal Rassak, Feb 4, 2013.

  1. Nagisa Furukawa

    Nagisa Furukawa Commander Red Shirt

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    Spoonfeed is the perfect word. I took out my DS9 Companion to get what Behr says on the subject, and since Behr suggests to "deconstruct things," that's what I'll do:

    Heh, you always know when people start off what they're saying with stuff like this that by the end, he's going to end up completely contradicting it. It's like the guy who starts a racist rant by saying, "Now, I'm not a racist, and I have many black friends, BUT..."

    (Just to be clear, that's an extreme example I'm comparing Behr too; what he said was nowhere near that bad, but it's the same sort of "I want to make clear that usually I don't agree with what I'm gonna say, but now I'm gonna say it..." method of explanation.)

    Here, I think is the big issue for Behr. Dukat's change in character has nothing to do with the mumbo jumbo Behr says below and everything to do with overreacting to a couple of people on the Internet. Yes, I'm sure there ARE people who thought that because Dukat was charismatic, genocide must be okay and yes, those people are wrong.

    But the integrity of the fiction shouldn't be used as a personal soundboard to argue back with a few nutjobs online, and in doing so, they threw the baby out with the bathwater. There are many more people who understood that Dukat was a vile person who did horrendous things... but thought that the fact that he genuinely thought he was doing the right thing, and was genuinely capable of doing nice and kind acts for those he cared about, was what made him such an interesting villain. "Guy does bad things but thinks he's the hero" is an interesting story. "Guy turns into a cackling supervillain with glowing red eyes" isn't. Having Sisko address the camera and say, "THERE IS PURE EVIL AND IT'S DUKAT" or turning Dukat into a Pah-Wraith toadie who cackles while doing evil things for no reason like killing Jadzia doesn't dispute the people who somehow think genocide is okay; it just makes a good character into a shit one.

    This is pure "????? Huh?!" territory. But it's clearly pseudo-intellectual twaddle used to justify the real reason they did it (to spoonfeed what was obvious to most of the audience to a couple of wackos and ending up choking them by shoving so much food down their throats). Not a million miles from Dukat actually... :rommie:
     
  2. Muldfeld

    Muldfeld Ensign Red Shirt

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    I remember thinking that at the time.

    Still, when I hate someone, I do talk like Sisko does. I see it now as a reflection of Sisko's anger and hatred than a factual description. I thought Dukat returned to his initial self in that last 10 episode arc. I think the fear by Behr was in reading fans trying to make him out to be a hero and that Bajor's occupation wasn't so bad as to deserve his hatred. That really frightened him.

    Edit: Ignore my previous paragraph because the poster before me already wrote what I was referring to.

    What I LOVE about Behr is that he has a strongly political and moral conscience to his writing. Star Trek isn't interesting to me without him.
     
  3. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

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    THIS!!!
     
  4. CommanderRaytas

    CommanderRaytas Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Are the writers in the business of morally educating people? Let the audience decide who's interesting, and who isn't. Even if we start liking a villain, so fucking what? That at least means they managed to create an interesting character. Most of us are aware that stuff on tv isn't real, and most of us aren't going to try taking over the galaxy just because we have a thing for an "evil" fictional character. Jeez.
     
  5. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think it would've been more interesting if Dukat wasn't a true believer, just a vessel for power. If he realized that Sisko commanded the Bajoran Gods and to destroy them is to destroy Sisko's power. He is just chasing the power to control, and beat, Benjamin Sisko because he is emissary.

    The final showdown was weak. It's like the writers just wanted to have a reason for their to be an emissary in this time of the series. I thought guiding Bajor after the Occupation was reason enough; that he would bring peace to them. Really, the idea that Sarah had a child with the prophets--the whole story arc for the emissary in season 7--wreaks.
     
  6. WesleysDisciple

    WesleysDisciple Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I have to say... I think Sarah sisko was ok...

    It doesnt have to be a retcon

    maybe she was one of hte more adventerous prophets... And they dont exist in linear time so maybe they went back to arrange for this guy to come by... even though they hadnt met linear beings yet.

    like it or not, it works with entitys outside of Linear time.
     
  7. Dal Rassak

    Dal Rassak Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Nice to have so many people agreeing with me on this point...

    To me the whole attraction of Dukat as a character was his ambivalence - the fact you could despise his actions while admiring him almost against your will.

    Evidently, he was a bad guy - most people have a few redeeming features, and the fact that he had those as well doesn't change the fact that he was essentially a ruthless, power-hungry, self-obsessed bastard.
    And, of course, he believed he was a good guy. That was what made him so realistic. Everyone thinks their own actions are justified. And certainly your classic dictator types never think of themselves as evildoers. Hitler was convinced he was a good guy. So was Idi Amin. It goes with the territory.
     
  8. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think that's what Dukat's intentions were when he first sought out the Pah-Wraiths--he thought he could control their power to his own ends.

    But, as we had seen all the way back in "Prophet Motive," that species did have the power to overwrite the minds of humanoids in their image. And that's what I think the Pah-Wraiths did to Dukat: destroyed his free will.



    BTW, for those of you who liked "Covenant," I have the PERFECT soundtrack for that episode.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uod4zDdhofY