DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Sykonee, Apr 9, 2009.

  1. Pemmer Harge

    Pemmer Harge Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's an interesting idea, but I actually quite liked the way several of the character arcs were left open after Objects at Rest. Since the series generally did a good job at giving closure to its stories, I didn't mind a bit of messiness - it felt believable.

    Maybe they could have resolved some of the loose ends in the TV films? Oh well.
     
  2. Bones2

    Bones2 Commodore Commodore

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    I'm very fond of Inquisition. Not far behind ITPM for me. I also rate its score.
     
  3. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    It goes to show just how long it has been since I watched the episode, but I was thinking of present-day Dukat in the episode, who contacts Kira in the beginning to taunt her about the relationship. I need to see the episode again.
     
  4. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I guess I just don't see present Dukat as that different or inconsistent from Dukat of "A Time to Stand" with his very unpleasant and this time disturbing advances towards Kira and his statement that they already have an "intimate relationship", or even from Dukat of "In Purgatory's Shadow"/"By Inferno's Light" with his anger and paranoid ideas about Kira supposedly trying to get a revenge on him through Ziyal.
     
  5. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'd go for Inquisition here. While I can understand people saying that the ending was a cop-out by revealing it all to be a holodeck simulation, the real revelation was the existence of S31 and that was one of the biggest things that DS9 introduced into the franchise. It's a pity that Enterprise was cancelled before they had an opportunity to use them properly. I also love Sloan, so the episode has that going for it.

    Ragged Edge is good too, but the big revelation of that episode was something the audience had already known about for a few episodes. Vis à Vis is completely out out of its league here.
     
  6. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I wouldn't say that it's a cop-out, but it's generally a bit disappointing when a bunch of stuff happens, then unhappens because it was all an illusion. DS9 does this twice that I can recall, here and in The Search II, and on both occasions there is a big reveal that has its impact diminished because of the feeling of disappointment that comes from the earlier events of the episode going up in a cloud of VR smoke.

    The negative impact is greater in The Search, but I do think the device detracts a bit from this episode as well. There are a couple of TNG episodes involving Riker as I recall where the whole point of the story is the character figuring out that he's being duped, and, like a lot of TNG stuff, it worked once or twice because of the novelty factor (like early holodeck silliness), but then it starts to feel predictable and annoying.

    Anyway, the fact that Sloan himself turns out to be real keeps this episode firmly in the "very good" category for me, along with the Section 31 reveal. I'm not crazy about the VR gimmick, though. Old habits obviously die hard for some of these Trek writers, but I think it would have been possible to tell the same story in a more straight-forward and therefore satisfying manner. Whatever, it's a quibble basically.
     
  7. Sykonee

    Sykonee Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Week 30: (Ending 04.19.98)
    DS9 - In The Pale Moonlight (04.15.98)
    VOY - The Omega Directive (04.15.98)
    B5 - The Corps Is Mother, The Corps Is Father (Airdate 04.15.98)

    Hey, it looks like someone took my idea for Star Trek: Dukat's Legacy, and instead did it for Babylon 5. Of course, the only major antagonist left at this point is Bester, so we now get Trust The Corps, where we get to see things from the perspective of everyone's favorite Psi-Cop, Bester. You have to admit, this episode does a great job in flipping things around. You could actually see it working, so long as they work out some of the kinks regarding 'solving the mystery' exposition. Why was this guy so hated aga- oh! That's why. Damn, that's... cold. Hm, I wonder if ol' Alfred has found himself a new protégé? I bet she'll give better backrubs than Byron ever did for him.:alienblush:

    VOY's better this week. While the main plot surrounding the Omega MacGuffin (yes, I'm sure I'm only the zillionth person to make that quip, but that's what it is, gotdangit!) is serviceable, it was nice to see everyone getting something to do (well, 'cept Dawson-Biggs, who had to go deliver a baby mid-way through). I could have done without yet another Hard Headed Alien, but it seems there's always something to gain by having Janeway and Seven butt heads over something. I dunno, this is a weird episode. It's hard to deny its charms while it's playing, but honestly has a hard time standing up to scrutiny when you think back upon it.

    ...Unlike a certain other episode that aired this week.

    Okay, we all know how this one plays out. But damn... Who remembers when that first aired, huh? For most of '98, there'd been this overhanging doom on DS9. Things just weren't going well for Our Heroes, leading us to In The Pale Moonlight, where we were promised something significant was going to occur. With the somber narration from Sisko, all leading up to the immortal "It's a fa-a-a-ake!", you just had this sense of, of...

    "This is it. This is where things hit totally rock bottom. There's no where else to go but 'up'." After all, why else would Sisko be so forlorn? His plan had backfired, and now the Federation was certain to lose. What chance could they-

    Vreenak's ship... was sabotaged? Oh... my... Didn't see...

    Do you feel that? That tingling running down your spine? It happens when you realize you've just been fed one of the greatest twists Trek has ever seen. Do you feel that? The quickened breath of excitement? That this isn't just some one-off twist for the sake of a clever episode, but one that drastically effect the way this series plays out from here? Do you feel that? Adrenaline surging, as you hear Garak explain everything, and Sisko confirming that, yes indeed, the Romulans are now a significant factor in the war? And yet, do you feel... that. The cold chill across your skin, as Sisko's final words send us into black.

    It just doesn't get much better than this, my friends, Roddenberry's "vision" be damned.

    Weekly Winner
    DS9

    Next:
    DS9 - His Way
    VOY - Unforgettable
     
  8. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, some episodes just deserve their reputation, and ItPM is one of them. I had a chance to rewatch it recently, and it's amazing how little of the feeling of dread and suspense is lost even upon repeat viewings. The scene where Vreenak is sipping his replicated Romulan beverage and musing on the subtle differences between the fake and the genuine article, just prior to being given the data storage rod, is simply sublime.

    That's an example of just how many important DS9 ideas are wrapped up in this gem of an episode, including the inferior quality of replicated food and drink.

    It's Garak's defining moment, but it's Avery Brooks' episode, everything is perfect, the sense of foreboding, the seething frustration with the course of the war, Sisko's disgust with others and with himself. It's a sign of how strong the character is at this point that the writers can throw something like this at him without it feeling forced in the slightest, and without it undercutting our sense that this is basically a good, moral person trying to deal with an incredibly difficult set of circumstances, comparable to Kira turning into a collaborator during the Occupation Arc as far as confronting a character with his/her own limitations and shortcomings is concerned.

    And with one line, a guest star enters into pop culture legend: It's a faaaake!!!! "So say we all." :lol:
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2010
  9. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'll never forget the first time I saw ITPM. Me and my friend were just pretty much sitting there with our mouths open all the way through! It was shocking to see a loyal Starfleet officer set up the Romulans the way he did, but at the same time it felt totally acceptable owing to the difficult times the Federation was facing.

    Brilliant episode for Garak and Sisko, this is easily in my top five of the series.
     
  10. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Only one episode this week has stood the test of time, and that episode is The Omega Directive. It's an action episode with some religious stuff for Seven to digest, what more could you ask for? And the Omega Directive itself made a lot of sense.

    B5 was fun because it was based around Bester, but the plot wasn't that interesting.

    I haven't seen the DS9 episode from this week, but judging by the title I'm assuming it was about ballroom dancing. Sounds dull.


    :shifty:
     
  11. Pemmer Harge

    Pemmer Harge Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    So, In the Pale Moonlight. This is a damn good episode and it wins the week, but like Duet, it's one of those that I can admire without quite rating them as highly as many others do. I think my problem may be that I didn't experience it like you - I saw it long after it originally aired, by which time I'd already heard incredible amounts of hype coming from the niners about how this was the best episode of DS9. I liked it, and I liked it even more on a second viewing, but it didn't affect me as much as it seems to have affected most people. Still very good though and certainly one of the best of the season.

    Oh, and is that title a Batman reference?

    The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father is an entertaining episode. Bester is a great character (and, incidentally, has completely eclipsed Chekov when I think of Walter Koenig) and it was interesting to see him from a different perspective.

    DS9 wins.
     
  12. Sykonee

    Sykonee Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Week 31: (Ending 04.26.98)
    DS9 - His Way (Airdate 04.22.98)
    VOY - Unforgettable (Airdate 04.22.98)

    Sorry for the delay on this one. I had to keep going back to watch the VOY episode over and over again, as I kept forgetting what it was about or who was even in it. Ah, heh. No, not really. My computer had a power malfunction, so was sent to the repair shop. Fortunately, only a minor replacement was required.

    So, what was VOY about this week again?

    Odo and Kira finally hook up, in a way that's kind of reminiscent of those old romantic movies you'd see from the 50s or 60s. Couple are made for each, couple don't know how to get together, a friend/confidant/Cyrano type tricks them into opening up to each other, couple gets embarrassed, then realize that, yes, they are made for each other after all. It's cute, I guess. The type of episode I'm sure my grandfather likes (though he was never a fan of the Sinatra types, just because he always got compared to him).

    I s'pose DS9 wins this week. At least I can remember it. Kind of an odd follow-up to In The Pale Moonlight though.

    Weekly Winner
    DS9

    Next:
    DS9 - The Reckoning
    VOY - Living Witness
     
  13. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I managed to miss His Way first time round, and was a bit confused when I saw Odo and Kira together in future episodes! The episode is a bit of an average one, with a very telegraphed getting together throughout.

    In retrospect, season 7 makes the Odo/Kira relationship worthwhile, whereas at this point in time the decision to put them together is dubious.

    The episode is better than VOY's effort though, which was also average with a telegraphed romance throughout. And a poor story. Chakotay had become such a chump by this point in the series.
     
  14. Pemmer Harge

    Pemmer Harge Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    This.

    His Way was sort of fun in a sitcom kind of way. Not very dramatically satisfying, however.
     
  15. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Agreed. I tend to see His Way as the anti-Chimera: it's all about Odo trying to be someone he isn't in order to woo the Major, when being himself is finally all that is needed. That is what the final scene of His Way seems to suggest, but the episode does spend most of its time on Odo's awkward and mildly humorous attempts at trying to become a ladies' man, so it's not very satisfying, given Odo and Kira's complicated past and all the substance there is to draw on between these two characters.

    Basically the episode is a lot like the final scene: let's just throw these characters together and see what happens. Given Trek's history with this kind of thing, it could have been bad, or it might never have risen above mediocre, but then René Echevarria writes a masterpiece episode in season 7 and it all comes together. I was surprised ;)

    My opinion of this episode was influenced initially by my dislike for Vic: I don't like the rat pack persona much, and I'm not a big fan of the musical style. The character has grown on me, though, so I enjoy His Way a lot more now, as a more seasoned fan.

    Musically, Berman-era Trek was mostly extraordinarily dull. Also, I personally have always enjoyed seeing in-universe music, which is pretty rare in Trek. I love the few seconds at the end of Once More Unto the Breach, for example, when we see the Klingons break into song. It's a fun device that could/should be used a lot more. Anyway, Vic is partly a way to sneak in some in-universe music, so I've come to appreciate that part of the character, and the way Vic's lounge allows Visitor to drop character to sing Fever in this episode and later the Darren/Brooks duet at the end of Badda-Bing. It's fun. A brilliant idea, really, that I think I would have appreciated sooner had Vic's persona been something I didn't spontaneously find annoying :)

    Presumably. Ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight? As far as I know that's where the phrase comes from, though I suppose there might be another source. Not so much a reference to anything in the Batman film specifically, but a way of implying that Sisko is dancing with the devil. Not just Garak, though he is a sort of wild card or "joker" in this episode, but just generally speaking: Sisko is flirting with some extremely ambiguous moral choices. Anyway, that is how I've always understood the implications of the title.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2010
  16. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Wow, I remember Unforgettable! :eek: This is the first time in my life that I have actually remembered that episode without having to consult MA. I almost wish I didn't.

    His Way
    is okay, but I did find Vic annoying the first time I saw it and it wasn't until It's Only a Paper Moon that he became a worthwhile character. It's a poor follow-up to ITPM, but few episodes wouldn't have been.
     
  17. Tulaberry whine

    Tulaberry whine Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    His Way is one of my favourites if not my favourite episode of DS9. It's perfectly pitched between being romantic, sweet, sexy and funny - no small achievement given the mess Trek often makes of romances.

    The idea Odo of all people couldn't tell the deference between a hologram and the real life Major Kira is a bit hard to swallow - but apart from that it's a superb episode.
     
  18. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    His Way was meh- too romcom for my taste... While I do like some of the old romcoms like It Happened One Night, it just didn't suit Odo and Kira at all. Itwas really season 7 that made it work with Chimera. It doesn't help that I'm generally not a big fan of romcoms, and I didn't like it much in season 7 with Ezri and Bashir, either.
     
  19. Sykonee

    Sykonee Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Okay, who's been holding out to get #1000. Come on, I know some of you are.:evil:

    Week 32: (Ending 05.02.98)
    DS9 - The Reckoning (Airdate 04.29.98)
    VOY - Living Witness (Airdate 04.29.98)

    Right. You build up the backstory of this epic confrontation between the Prophets and the Pagh-Wraiths, something that was foretold 30, 000 years ago. This is, like, supposed to be the ULTIMATE CONFRONTATION, right? God versus Lucifer. Alexander versus King Darius III. Yoda versus The Emperor. Optimus Prime versus Megatron. Magic versus Bird. Stone Cold Steve Austin versus Vince McMahon. Your wife versus your mother. Um, DS9 versus B5. And hey, a lot of the lead-up to it does a good job of setting the stage.

    The epic battle though? Just... two people standing across from each other, and a SFX lightshow. That's... it? All that build-up... for that? THIS, from a show that has continuously succeeded in giving us great payoffs time and time again?? Hrmm... maybe the premise for this episode wasn't such a good idea after all, not if all that we're going to see is the shakey-cam in action and a light show.

    Living Witness, then. Yeah, that's a fun show to watch. Seeing regular characters in different roles will always add spice, but VOY manages to do something significant with that idea for a change. Instead of being Alternate Universe caricatures or subverted by outside personalities, we're simply seeing them in a misrepresented form, which forms the basis of this episode's Message: the dangers of faulty knowledge.

    It's telling that in Doc's version of the accounts, neither race was entirely guiltless (whereas the records portrayed them as unwitting victims). A classic case of any civilization glossing over certain topics they'd rather simply forget. After all, when we discuss Empires of old, most books will highlight many of the achievements rather than detail their uglier aspects (yeah, those Romans were brutal and all, but DAMN, look at that architecture, man!). Can't help but wonder how much of our current history will be simply glossed over to make us look that much better in the future.

    VOY easily wins. DS9 usually manages to do something interesting when it gets into the topic of faith and religion, but not when it involves tired "good versus evil" tropes. Where's the moralistic quandary?

    Weekly Winner
    VOY

    Next:
    DS9 - Valiant
    VOY - Demon
     
  20. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Oh I know, I totally agree. The Reckoning is very disappointing, and kinda forshadows the disappointing Pah-Wraith arc we get until the finale. Good vs. Evil is a solid, time-old theme, but in this episode it's at its most basic form. It started off so promisingly too. The one bit I did like was Kai Winn interfering with the outcome, with her being more concerned about herself as usual.

    Living Witness is one of VOY's best. Seeing the VOY crew as over-the-top evil was hilarious, and yet the episode's theme of the seriousness of mis-remembered history remains present throughout. Really happy with this one.