DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Sykonee, Apr 9, 2009.

  1. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
    Personally, I liked "The Homecoming" more. "The Descent" (especially part II) was just terrible for me. Part II could have saved it but took completely the wrong direction. The only real highlight for me was Dr. Crusher in charge.
     
  2. DGCatAniSiri

    DGCatAniSiri Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah, Descent Part II may have the emotional impact of the Data-Lore story, but frankly, it makes the Borg into little more than your standard issue grunts - they could honestly be anybody. The second part takes a story that was interesting on it's own, the idea of the Borg developing into a violent aggressor species, perhaps even with the idea of making Data into their king, and it turns into another tale about the brothers of Soong. To be perfectly honest, I was never big on the 'Data has an evil twin' story, so there wasn't a lot in the way of 'emotional impact' for me. Really, the highlight for me was the 'Crusher in command' story.

    I'd give Homecoming the win.
     
  3. Sykonee

    Sykonee Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Heh, I knew there'd be a bit of controversy over this one. I was honestly expecting to come away from Descent II with the same reactions. In some ways, The Homecoming clearly is a better episode, as it's much more tightly directed and more enjoyable from start to finish. However, I find it lacks the same emotional impact as Descent, mostly due to the fact Homecoming is primarily set-up, whereas Descent is payoff. Of course, if you've never much cared for Data, then Descent is much ado about nothing, but he was still a very popular character at that point, so head-to-head as viewed way back in 93, I'd give the edge to TNG in this case.

    Week 2: (Ending 10.03.93)
    TNG: Liaisons (Airdate 09.27.93)
    DS9: The Circle (Airdate 10.03.03)

    OMG! Is this technically the first instance in Trek of a man-on-man kiss? I suppose the Iyaarans might be asexual, but they sure seem to be male here. Huh, oh the episode itself? Eh, alright. A couple amusing bits, not much in the way of suspense (the Picard stuff didn't really grab any traction, which may have been the point considering Voval didn't understand what he should be doing). Just a 'there' kind of show. These TNG 'diplomatic' episodes are almost always dull, sadly.

    The Circle is just awesomeness from start to finish. Well, okay, the 'big' action climax (Kira's rescue) was kind of ham-fisted, but they were probably running short on time, and they needed to fit in more wicked political intrigue.

    So, after a tight -and questionable- opening round (week) win, TNG gets solidly knocked out by DS9 in round (week) two. Can the veteran stymie the new kid's current momentum and make a comeback in the next round?

    Weekly Winner:
    DS9

    Next:
    TNG - Interface
    DS9 - The Siege
     
  4. M

    M Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This one, however, will be easy. The Siege is pretty much perfect, as far as I'm concerned. I like Interface because I like Geordi, but it was nowhere near as good as The Siege. :)
     
  5. Praetorian

    Praetorian Captain Captain

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    Bah, Descent II was quite a letdown to me. I don't really think it was that clear that the second part would be "about Lore and Data"... Descent I ended with a recurring antagonist delivery a threat, and quite a significant one. When an antagonist makes a threat like that, you better follow up on it.... Specially if it's the last fraking line of a cliffhanger!
    Instead we got Lore and Data fapping around... I saw no worthwile character interaction between them, except their last scene. The rest of the episode Lore was doing pratically nothing and Data was either being an emotion crackwhore and/or "evil".
    Nevermind the nonsensical "macguyvering" that occured in that prison cell...puhleaze!

    "Homecoming"? It had action, intrigue, drama and very nice character momments. A thousand times better..=P
     
  6. Sykonee

    Sykonee Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    :sigh: I've a feeling this Descent-Homecoming thing is going to haunt me like a game-changing call haunts a ref.

    Week 3: (Ending 10.10.93)
    TNG: Interface (Airdate 10.04.93)
    DS9: The Siege (Airdate 10.10.03)

    Alright, something doesn't sit right with me in both these episodes. Allow me to clarify:

    Interface: killing Geordie's mother seems gratuitous and out of the blue, but hey, at least there's some good potential character stuff here, right? Er, instead we have an obsessive and downright irritable LaForge tied to a Clever Gimmick (See! Geordie with normal eyes.). There's at least some heart to this episode, but despite losing The Mother The Audience Doesn't Have Any Connection To, we still don't learn anything new about LaForge. Maybe that wasn't the point to the episode, but it feels like a waste for us to not have learned more of him other than what we already know (he's blind, is the Chief Engineer, and seems to be hapless with the ladies). Why else would you kill off a main character's mother otherwise?

    The Siege: Really, what was the point of the siege? As much as I enjoy the Circle Trilogy, all the stuff that occurs on the station seems like pointless filler (aside from some good stuff involving Nalas, Sisko, and Krim). The crux of this episode is in delivering the evidence to Bajor, and the Kira-Dax stuff is good fun. Sisko and co. didn't really have to stay behind for those two to carry out their mission, and they'd be invited right back once the evidence was confirmed. I guess the writers wanted to show Sisko was willing to bend the rules and fight for what he believed was right? If that was the case, at least he came away from this with more character development.

    Okay, rants off. Two episodes with heart, but both with a feeling that there's something major missing. Still, DS9 is the obvious winner, and not just because it's the one with thrills, spills, and grillz (?); rather, for the simple fact it's an Event Episode, plus a Payoff Episode.

    I don't think TNG is liking the fact it's getting knocked around so easily by this kid right now, so it's coming out with the Big Guns next week, the first of a two-parter! Dun dun dun...

    Weekly Winner:
    DS9

    Next:
    TNG - Gambit, Part I
    DS9 - Invasive Procedures
     
  7. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It is your thread and your call, your opinion is just as valid as the opinion of everyone else. It's like the time I gave Coda a 0 score in my Voyager review thread, if I had been in a room with some of the posters they would have thrown rotten vegetables at me, but you have to stick to your guns.

    That being said, The Homecoming was the superior episode. :p;)
     
  8. M

    M Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The point was to stop the Circle from taking over the control of the station, I guess. If Sisko and his people would have left the station with their families and Kira would have failed to deliver the evidence to the Chamber of Ministers, then the station would be in the hands of the Circle. Sisko didn't want that to happen. What, that doesn't seem logical enough ... ? :shifty:

    Yeah, maybe the reason for Sisko to stay was a bit flabby, but I liked to see them crawling through the access tunnels fighting a guerrilla war. :D

    But there were people who stood in front of you. People who tried to protect you from the flying vegetables. People like Praetor and myself. ;)

    Of course it was. *throws vegetable at Sykonee*
     
  9. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    *gets hit by a vegetable* Godsfrakindamnit!! This is my best shirt! :(

    And I'm highly appreciative, it's good to have backup when you make a drastic decision and Sykonee could do with some support like that. :)

    Not from me though, I've been drinking. Booooooo!! Homecoming was a way better episode. Boooooo!! *throws vegetables*
     
  10. thedude

    thedude Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Great thread, Sykonee.

    I agree with most of your rankings thus far, except for that one B5 win... I never really could get into that show, and think it's somewhat weak compared to Trek... but I digress...

    I think The Interface was a pretty strong TNG episode. I've always enjoyed the LaForge-centric episodes, as they really focus on what humanity is capable (I'll never forget the line "A blind man teaching an android to paint" that just about sums up what Trek is about) of even given present-day limitations and handicaps. Finally getting a little more background on his character was very nice, and it's always nice to "see" what he sees. I wish they'd done more of that.

    The Siege was good, but I don't think it was as solid as you're saying it was. I don't think that storyline needed 3 episodes to do what it did... but they were trying to reel in viewers, so I don't blame them.

    I really think just solely on individual episode quality, that The Interface had better performances, and was a better "Trek" episode than The Siege.

    Other than that great job so far, I'm anxious to see the outcome tomorrow. Both two great episodes with great Trek elements in them.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2009
  11. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You know, I remember being extremely, extremely bored by "Interface" and "The Siege" the first time I watched them. I agree that both episodes have weaknesses, but in subsequent viewings, my love for the former decreased and the latter increased. The only two things "Interface" have going for it are Geordi has something to do and his parents are Madge Sinclair and Ben Vereen.

    I agree! :D

    Nah, as usual GodBen has said it better than I could before I could:

    *stands in front of Sykonee*

    Your potatoes... SHALL. NOT! PASS!!! :mad:
     
  12. Sykonee

    Sykonee Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Hah, thanks for the 'support'. ;) Don't worry, after writing music reviews for over four years, I've learned to develop a thick skin over controversial opinions. I'm sure there'll be plenty more as this carries on.

    PS: After reading it, one word comes to mind for GodBen's VOY thread: epic!
     
  13. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Only epic? I must not being trying hard enough, I hoped it was Sub Zero. :(
     
  14. Sykonee

    Sykonee Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's two words.

    Week 4: (Ending 10.17.93)
    TNG: Gambit, Part I (Airdate 10.11.93)
    DS9: Invasive Procedures (Airdate 10.17.93)

    Mercenary week!

    Geez, another tough one. TNG manages to break mold here, which is quite refreshing. After all, when was the last time we saw Data in full command of the Enterprise for such an extended length of time? NEVER, that's when! The pirate ship stuff was pretty good, with Picard playing rogue (and I think he even enjoys it a little too) and Riker's involvement only adds to the intrigue. As usual, TNG executes a solid first half of a two-parter.

    DS9 was no slouch this week either. Everyone was involved to some degree, which is tough to do in a stand-alone single-plot episode. And even the guest stars turned in strong memorable showings (especially so Glover's two turns as Verad and Verad Dax). The whole 'abandoned station' atmosphere was wonderfully creepy too.

    Which one wins then? Um... DS9, for a single reason: TNG's cliffhanger. For some reason, that cliffhanger felt off-kilter and, well, silly. It reminds me of an old cartoon serial that would leave off on an impossible cliff-hanger. "Look out!" -followed by the world exploding, or something; TNG's cliff-hangers are usually a little more subtle than that. DS9, on the other hand, had a strong dramatic conclusion to its episode. I'll take that any day.

    Weekly Winner:
    DS9

    Next:
    TNG - Gambit, Part II
    DS9 - Cardassians
     
  15. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not if you hyphenate it: Sub-zero.
     
  16. M

    M Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I always had a soft spot for Invasive Procedures. But I guess my reasons are rather superficial. For one thing, I love the feel of the abandoned station. It's like a ghost town and it would have been cool if there were more episodes with an empty station as the setting. I also dig the special effect shots of the station surrounded by the plasma disruption. They are nothing out of the ordinary, but I thought they were very successful in adding an eerie atmosphere to the episode.

    But the main reason for my affection for this episode is John Glover's performance as Verad. He does a great job of introducing his character as very week and helpless, only to set it against the strong and self-confident Dax version we get to know after the joining. I also thought Terry Farrell delivers a particularly strong performance in the scenes after the symbiont has been taken away from her.

    The episode is also interesting because we get to know a lot of information about how the Trill society and the whole symbiont/host relationship works.
     
  17. thedude

    thedude Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I love the Empok Nor episodes. Just seeing it in the initial approach shots, I knew it would be awesome. All off kilter and clearly creepy... I really wish they'd done more with it... I would have loved to see some creepy evil mad scientist type guy take it over and start doing experiments... that would have been cool.

    I agree on this decision. Gambit, Pt 1 is good, Gambit Pt 1 and Part 2 as a whole are better, and I think would stand up to Invasive Procedures, but that would break the rules. I liked seeing the TNG actors out of character and playing roles you weren't used to seeing them in. I thought Picard made a pretty bad ass pirate... maybe in a another life ;-)
     
  18. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Agreed with these reasons why "Invasive Procedures" is so good. "Gambit" is okay, but it's never been my favorite.

    And, wouldn't it have been interesting if DS9 had been a much less busy (and therefore, more empty) place, at least at the beginning of the series? Spooky!
     
  19. DGCatAniSiri

    DGCatAniSiri Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I had completely forgotten that it was John Glover as Verad (Or, in truth, had not connected the dots - I remembered Verad, I've seen John Glover elsewhere, but hadn't put the two together. Maybe it's just that Verad had tamed hair on his head and no facial hair...). Damn, now I need to get my hands on a Season 2 DVD set and watch this episode again.
     
  20. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I would have gone with Gambit, I've never been fond of Invasive Procedures. Part of it might have to do with coming down off the high of the Circle trilogy, any episode which followed such greatness would have trouble measuring up, but I also hate how Quark is used in the episode. He assisted terrorists in a raid on the station, it always felt very out of character and I never bought into it.