DS9 should get Remastered

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by Trekmaster555, Mar 3, 2008.

  1. martin

    martin Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    In some ways it would be easier than TOS-HD. There should be very minimal film restoration treatment, they wont be restricted by pre-existing optical effects, timings, and audio mixes.

    Also closeups of displays wont need re-making (i.e. the stardate display in TOS) and the computer displays are all LCARS so pretty easy for Okuda to re-do.

    Also the re-masterers will have more creative freedom, in episode edits, and SFX.

    The most expensive part of the process will be time and wages...
     
  2. the_wildcard

    the_wildcard Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    HD yes, remastering effects, no need.
     
  3. Trekwatcher

    Trekwatcher Fleet Captain Fleet Captain


    Definitely not, IMHO. I am rewatching all of DS9 from start to finish right now and from the get go in "Emissary" they were spot on with the effects. Some were corny and silly, but they were clean and well rendered. The models look sharp and clear, too. Leave it be, PLEASE, leave it be.
     
  4. ktanner3

    ktanner3 Guest

    The only thing that needs to be done with DS9 is a good digital transfer to Blue Ray. The DVDS aren't that bad as is, but I wouldn't mind a digital transfer for Blue-Ray. But no, we don't need new effect shots. There were more than enough effect shots for this series. The Original Star Trek and The Next Generation are the only shows that could use updated effects.
     
  5. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They would have to remaster the show for that to happen.

    As has already been pointed out, since DS9, TNG and Voyager were edited on videotape - and had their EFX done on videotape - it is literally impossible to show them in HD, or to release them on Blu-Ray.

    A remastering is *required* for either of those to happen. It's unavoidable.
     
  6. Zefram_Cochrane

    Zefram_Cochrane First Faster Than Light Red Shirt

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    Absolutely. I'm all for clinging to the past, but I am thoroughly enjoying the TOS-R episodes right now. And I watched every one of the 79 episodes during syndication in the early 80s to the point that my dad threatened to destroy all TVs in the house. (it got worse when I discovered videotaping)

    As other have said, if they do a re-release for HD, it's gotta be done anyway. If that happens, DS9 would be the ONLY series I would re-buy under the new format. TOS, TNG, VOY and certainly not ENT gets that honor on my shelf. DS9 was the best!

    -- ZC
     
  7. ktanner3

    ktanner3 Guest

    And that's all well and good. Most of us saying no to remastering just want to make sure that the show stays the same and doesn't get the Star Wars treatment.
     
  8. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Not even to fix obvious errors, like the second Defiant's registry number?
     
  9. TeutonicNights

    TeutonicNights Commander Red Shirt

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    If it happens I'd like to have a real final battle, not a "best of DS9 battles" montage like the one that aired.
     
  10. James Pike

    James Pike Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    So my upconverting DVD player on a 1080i TV is remastering the DVDs? Because it looks fine to me.
    You seem to be confusing re-mastering with re-doing. Re-mastering is just making a new master copy in a different format.
    Friends was filmed on tape, hell, look how many shows were filmed on tape, but I can buy them on DVD.
    If the MASTER tapes are still around, then all that need sto be done is the tape is sent through the scanner they use and a computer sharpens colors and lines and creates a new frame. Not much to it other than artist touch ups in spots.
    You act like they can't do it because of the SFX shots, but how did they do it for TOS? Sure they re-did the effects, but the scenes with people in it weren't reshot. You just run them through a filter to clean it up.

    DS9, TNG, Voy just need to be upconverted to Blue Ray.
     
  11. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Videotape was never used for TOS. It was all done on film, even the effects. So technically, TOS could have been aired in HD without any redoing - they just chose to do all new effects, and to remaster the show.

    For TNG, DS9 and Voyager, however, they did use tape (for all editing, and for the effects). That makes it impossible to air 'natively' in HD.

    Upconverting is not at all the same thing as native HD. Not even close. Upconversion gives a sort of "false HD" that may look good*, but it is not true, native, "real" high definition.

    *Upconversion is, in the final analysis, a completely useless marketing gimmick. ALL HDTVs must, by definition, upconvert, since if they didn't, you would get a tiny window of picture surrounded by black, whenever you viewed standard def programming.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2008
  12. SoM

    SoM Commander Red Shirt

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    Basically:

    TOS was completely done on 35mm film - editing was done by cutting and splicing film, physically; and phaser shots were done by painting on the film, physically.

    The space FX were redone for TOS-R because the composited model film was in a horrible state - in addition to the multi-generation compositing which shows up in SD, and would have stood out horrendously in HD

    TNG was wholly shot on 35mm film, including the motion-control models which made up most of the space FX, but all editing was done on 480i NTSC video. All phaser shots, replicator effects, LCARS shots, any glowy stuff, etc - even that net from Encounter at Farpoint - only exist as 480i video. In addition, the episodes weren't even preliminarily cut on 35mm film.

    To do a HD version of TNG (or "TNG-R") would be possible, but the episodes would need to be completely reassembled from the 35mm camera negatives, and every effect other than the motion-control models themselves would need to be CGIed from scratch (which includes the compositing of the models into one image). A glimpse of how this would go can be seen in the footage reused for ENT's finale, where a replicator shot had to be remade.

    To do a HD version of DS9/DS9-R would be even trickier, since all the TNG stuff above applies (plus add in the changeling shapeshifting as an additional source of Stuff To Do), but as the series went on they started making more and more use of CGI for the ship models - often composited with models in one shot when you see a fleet - and all of that would need redone [and VOY heads even further down the CGI route].
     
  13. darthgordon

    darthgordon Ensign Newbie

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    I'd love to see this stuff in HD. As already pointed out there are FX problems. It may not be all that bad b/c the models were filmed on film (that sounds redundant). It still seems like it might be a little more expensive than I think Paramount/ CBS would be willing to spend.

    I'd really love to see all Trek upgraded for HD. I don't know if it will happen though.

    For now, I'll settle for the movies. I'm going to guess that TMP might be the easiest b/c of the work that was done during the special edition.

    I'm going to guess that everything from WOK up is going to need some work where the FX is concerned.
     
  14. M

    M Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Let's hope not.
     
  15. SoM

    SoM Commander Red Shirt

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    Well, basically what it would need is for all the post-production to be done over (the individual model elements exist on film, but "kitbashed"/background-only models probably wouldn't stand up to the increased scrutiny, and all the CGI work would need redone). You're right in that that makes it a matter of cost. Who knows if they'll ever think it worth it? (probably not unless they start to struggle to sell the shows in SD at all :( ).
     
  16. CaptainJon

    CaptainJon Captain Captain

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    I've been watching the last 3 seasons straight through on DVD, and I don't think they need to be remastered. Maybe for HD like an above poster said, but not in terms of visual effects. Even nine years later, the visual effects still hold up very well today. I've watched the space battles in The Way of the Warrior, A Call to Arms, Sacrifice of Angels, and all the other big space battle episodes and they still continue to amaze me with the wonderful quality of awesomeness in them. The visual effects hold up incredibly well and I don't think they need to be changed. Maybe the only one that I would change (if at all, but even that's not really a must) is What You Leave Behind where they had spent the rest of their budget and had to use a lot of stock battle footage, but even that is pushing it.
     
  17. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    Again, this isn't so much a matter of changing things as a matter of ugrading the resolution. The Deep Space Nine effects were produced on video, at 480p. The show was, of course, shot on film, which is many times the resolution of HD (1080p). However, in order for everything to look right on HD the effects will have to, in the very least, be re-rendered in the higher resolution of 1080p.

    Not that I wouldn't mind What You Leave Behind, as well as the last episode with Kor, seeing some major changes. But I could live with both if they didn't.
     
  18. SoM

    SoM Commander Red Shirt

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    480i, not 480p (the rest of what you said is right).
     
  19. vedek loki

    vedek loki Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Why? How does such a thing relate to the quality of the story or characters? Goofs happen on TV shows and movies. I don't like the notion that George Lucas has put in people's heads that it's OK to tamper with art/entertainment in this way. Should we fix the slightly crooked smile on the Mona Lisa, too?

    My DS9 DVDs are just fine. My only complaints have been the flimsy packaging, and the lack of a "Play All Episodes" button on each disc. Having to go through two levels of menus just to start an episode, and to have to climb back out and then back in for the next episode, was a goofy idea.

    But I don't need 'improved' CGI or any gaffes fixed, thanks. They don't detract from my viewing pleasure one bit.
     
  20. M

    M Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ From your mouth to the Prophet's ears! :bolian: