DS9 on blu ray?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by borgboy, Nov 28, 2013.

  1. Salinga

    Salinga Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The same argument was used against the Audio CD in the 80s (CDs beeing overpriced and the average listener wont appreciate the difference between Vinyl and CD) and it still happened in the end once the CD players became cheap enough. Probably also because the manufacturers/labels just didnt want to care about different media formats. Which makes me wonder if movie/tv distributors just one day just dont want to feature two formats anymore and just go with Bluray, so no extra costs for producing DVDs is needed (DVDs have a different menu and file format).
     
  2. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And remember that there are many TV shows that, by definition, can never be released on Blu-Ray, because they can't be shown in HD (shows shot or edited on videotape, for example; videotape maxes out at 480i resolution). So the only way to release such shows would be on regular DVD.

    I suppose it is theoretically possible to release a Blu-Ray disc that contains only standard definition material, but that would be pointless, since regular DVDs can be played on Blu-Ray players.
     
  3. Salinga

    Salinga Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Not pointless: As producer of video medium you just drop the DVD production chain and only produce for Bluray, even if it only contains SD material. Makes internal organization easier and cheaper.

    Another interest for manufacturers are the higher prices of Blurays. Dropping DVDs means: No extra costs for DVD production, no cheap alternative for the consumer and media that sells for a higher price - and without alternative, the consumer HAS to buy the Bluray for the higher price or let it be. Same happened with Vinyl, which was always cheaper compared to Audio CDs - once Vinyl disappeared, you had to buy the CDs for the higher price.

    Why having extra costs for producing a DVD if in the end makes you lose money because you offer a cheap alternative to the higher priced Bluray? ;)
     
  4. Cap.T

    Cap.T Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I don't thing producers or studios care all that much about 4K. Most tv shows and a lot of movies today are being shot on a digital camera that's called Arri Alexa. That camera's max. resolution is 2.8K. So most of the stuff that is shot today doesn't even have a chance to become truly real 4K material. All of the stuff that's shot with the Alexa (for example the Marvel-Movies) would need to be upconverted.
     
  5. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And what happens when buyers start complaining that the BD they just bought doesn't have any high definition material on it?
     
  6. scotthm

    scotthm Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes, you can get image burn-in on an LCD/LED screen. I have one in my office where it's quite noticeable.

    ---------------
     
  7. USS KG5

    USS KG5 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Ive seen 4K and the demo material looks great, but a lot of the improvement you see with HD is not down to the resolution, it cones down to the compression methods used.

    Blu Rays single biggest and most noticeable improvement for me is the lack of artefacts where in dvd you got lots.

    Im not convinced about content either, as others have said only a tiny percentage of films are shot with 4k capable cameras, there is little or no advantage to it for catalogue releases (which here in the uk we often dont get on blu anyway).

    As I said earlier, 4k will eventually become the standard, but unlike with HD you will not notice a big difference.

    Funnily enough everyone forgets the switch from analogue to digital tv, the old trnasmitted pictures look horrifically poor these days, and there was no change at all in resolution.
     
  8. Praxius

    Praxius Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Jumping in late, but I just got finished reading a link about DS9 going to Blu Ray, if and when, etc.

    One of the arguments mentioned is the complexity of the episodes around Season four and onward due to CGI being introduced and physical models no longer being used.

    From what I understand based on my 3D modelling and animation background, is that the problem is relating to the CGI scenes being rendered and exported as a specific resolution and quality, which is next to near impossible to increase in quality after the fact from the exported video clips..... in other words, what you see is what you get. The Digital Video is not like Film where you can squeeze out some more image quality.

    It's like making a 72dpi JPG in Photoshop from a 360dpi PSD file... then trying to take that 72dpi JPG and blowing it up into a 300dpi Canvas Print..... you just end up with a pixelated blob of a mess.

    The thing that confuses me is this:

    Don't they still have the original 3D scenes from whatever 3D program they used? (3D Studio Max / Maya, etc.)

    While I was in College, I kept all the scenes I created in Maya and still have them around. At the time I was restricted to making crappy 320x240 AVI files due to the limitations of the computers we were working on. I could render larger video files, but they would have taken days to complete.... or even weeks depending on the length and video size I wanted to produce.

    However, with my computer today, I could very easily re-export those scenes into higher video qualities in about the same amount of time, or faster, and thus, pump out some HD stuff beyond mere 320x240 AVI's on a CD.

    Did the crew on DS9 throw away these original scene files from the show?

    If they still have them, they could easily open the files up in a newer version of the 3D program used and just re-export them into a higher quality video file.

    Sure, you might end up with some starships with some poly edges and maybe not very well defined areas, but the scenes would be the exact same as the original episodes, but in much better clarity / detail to suit Blu Ray..... compared with working on the already compressed video clips from the original episodes and have pixilation issues that would take even longer to try and clear up.

    If they did toss away the original 3D Modelling / Animation Files, then I'd say they're screwed and will have to do it the hard way if they decide to do it at all...... Worst Case: Having to re-create all the CGI scenes from scratch and doing it all over again..... Medium Case: find someone who has some magical abilities to be able to restore and add in some detail - FRAME BY FRAME - to the existing episode scenes used in the series.

    ^ As a Photo Editor, Retoucher and working in the Sign Industry on top of the above mentioned skills.... I can tell you that would be a pain in the arse to do.

    Here's hoping someone has those original 3D animation/modelling scenes on a CD or floppy disk somewhere.
     
  9. Maxwell Everett

    Maxwell Everett Commodore Commodore

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    It's not a conversion, CBS Digital has re-scanned the original 35mm negatives. And why would the aspect ratio be a factor? Are you aware that 4:3 content on Blu-ray has almost exactly the same number of active pixels as 2.35:1 content?

    Deep Space Nine in High Definition: One Step Closer?
     
  10. NewHorizon

    NewHorizon Captain Captain

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    There was more than one production house doing the CGI, as mentioned in the link above...we know at least one person has all of the files their company worked on, but there has been no word on anyone else.

    They also said that their files were overbuilt and would better stand up to HD viewing.

    Fingers crossed they find the rest.
     
  11. SoM

    SoM Commander Red Shirt

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    Blu-ray licensing forbids SD-only releases. Extras notwithstanding, even 480i/576i video must be upscaled to HD, despite it decreasing the quality, if anything.
     
  12. Praxius

    Praxius Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Thanks for that, it was an interesting read.

    I had a funny feeling that the original scenes would still exist, and I had a hunch Lightwave was used... It was popular back then.

    I would also guess that someone in the other company would have most or all of the scene files as well.... I mean sure they point out that the limitations of storage space back then was a big issue, but for the type of work they specialized in and how I copied all my college projects on about 4 CDs.... I'm sure storage for all those files wasn't really much of an issue.

    Besides... If I knew my business was working on Star Trek, I'd keep every single KB of data and store it all in some vacuum sealed container locked in a bunker.

    Which brings up the real issue:

    After so many years, how's the integrity of the files on those 20 some odd year discs / hard drives? How many files would have become corrupted & how bad?
     
  13. USS KG5

    USS KG5 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Fascinatingly, becoming a massive problem full stop. Whereas film kept in moderately controlled conditions keeps incredibly well, there is currently no digital format that can be counted on for storage for more than fifty years, if even close to that.

    As a result those who archive the high points of filmed culture (i.e. keep Avengers, delete Green Lantern) are having genuine trouble deciding how they can make sure people in a 100 years can watch Toy Story as we watch the earliest days of film.

    Fortunately, the Internet preserves a great deal, and thousands of copies exist, but if there were ever a really massive disaster (even a small nuclear exchange for example) some things only existing digitally could be lost forever.
     
  14. drmick

    drmick Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I have read this post three times, and honestly don't understand what you are trying to say!

    Wouldn't a small nuclear exchange need to take out every DVD on the planet?!
     
  15. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Really? I didn't know that. Can you give a link to any further info on this? (Google fu turned up nothing.)
     
  16. USS KG5

    USS KG5 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Dvds are part of the problem, they actually will likely not outlast many of their owners, estimates vary from 20 to 60 years.

    Its about preservation for 100 or 1000 years. Bit of an issue for digital media.
     
  17. Salinga

    Salinga Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yes. When I am old, I very likely wont be able to listen to my Audio CDs. But my Vinyls from the 80s will still work like a charm.
     
  18. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    I find it funny how there seems to be next to zero interest on VOY getting on Bluray release. There is not much of any demand from even Trek fans! :p
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'd be more interested in Voyager getting the TNG treatment than DS9.
     
  20. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    I imagine VOY would cost much more to remaster since it started using CGI much earlier than DS9.